Join us today for the Saturday Night Special with Deborah Heiser from the Mentor Project...
In this episode Deborah Heiser on the power of mentoring...
In tonight’s Saturday Night Special I interview Deborah Heiser. I ask Deborah about her work with the mentor project. I also ask her to share some of the biggest challenges that there are around finding and being a mentor. I also ask Deborah to share why she thinks mentorship is key and more…
Join in on the Chat below.
SNS99 Saturday Night Special - Interview with Deborah Heiser
[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: [00:00:00] Welcome to tonight's Saturday night, special episode 99.
[00:00:05] Deborah Heiser: [00:00:05] I'm Deborah Heiser. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to mentor and be mentored is key.
[00:00:22] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this, the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott Maderer.
[00:00:31]it, from the perspective of what legacy can our mentors KIPP what's there w where, and to whom do they want to give back to, and we match it from that direction. So that a person who has checked off so many boxes during their lifetime, Hey now I here's what I want my footprint on the world to be
[00:00:57] Scott Maderer: [00:00:57] welcome.
[00:00:57] And thank you for joining us on the inspired [00:01:00] stewardship podcasts. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired stewardship podcast. We'll learn to invest in yourself, invest in others and develop your influence.
[00:01:19] So that you can impact the world.
[00:01:23]And tonight, Saturday night special, I interviewed Deborah Heizer. I asked Deborah about her work with the mentor project. I also asked her to share some of the biggest challenges that she's found around finding and around being a mentor. And I also asked Deborah to share why she thinks mentoring. Is such a key and lots more.
[00:01:48] Now one area that a lot of folks need some help with is around the area of productivity. Getting not just more things done, but actually [00:02:00] getting the right things done can be really. I've got a course called productivity for your passion. That's designed to help you do this and then to hold you accountable and walk with you so that you can tailor productivity, not just to be getting more done, but actually getting the right things done.
[00:02:22] What's more, we take the approach of looking at your personality and how you actually look at things in the world and tailor the productivity system to your personnel. Cause the truth is a lot of the systems that are out there are written really well for somebody with a particular personality type.
[00:02:40] But if you have a different approach to things, they just don't work, but there's tools and techniques and approaches that you can take that will work for anyone. And we help you do that in productivity for your passion. Check it out firstname.lastname@example.org slash lawn.
[00:02:58]Debra Heizer is [00:03:00] an applied development psychologist, a TEDx speaker, a consultant, the founder of the mentor project, and an adjunct professor in the psychology department at sunny old Western. Debra has additionally, our third peer reviewed articles is the co-editor of the spiritual assessment and intervention with older adults and a frequent expert guests for syndicated and local talk radio shows international and local podcasts and print and online media outlets.
[00:03:29] She's been quoted in the New York times, the Seattle times, the Dallas times, and contributes to thrive. Global her research covers a wide range of topics. Related to aging, including depression, identification, dementia, and frailty with grants awarded from the NIH and Pfizer. She received an international award for her research on depression identification, as well as serving for nine years on the board of the state society on aging of New York.
[00:03:58] And she was the president of [00:04:00] that society in 2008. In 2016, she served as the president of the Queens psychological association in New York. Welcome to the show. Debra.
[00:04:10] Deborah Heiser: [00:04:10] Thank
[00:04:10] you for having me. It's such a privilege and honor to be on your show.
[00:04:14] Scott Maderer: [00:04:14] Absolutely. I'm really excited to have you here to talk about some of the work that you're doing with the mentor project and other things.
[00:04:22] So talking about that, we talked a little bit about the mentor project in the intro, but you started that as a nonprofit. Can you tell us a little bit more about what the mentor project is and how it works and how people can find out more about it?
[00:04:37] Deborah Heiser: [00:04:37] Sure. So we started because there were several individuals who are really, high achievers in the world.
[00:04:46]One of them is the Bob cousins. Who's the. Invent a, he patented how we use credit cards on the internet. He's that's just one of his many patents. He was just this year named inventor of the year by Silicon valley. [00:05:00] And so he's really a prolific. Inventor giant mind. He introduced me to another giant mind bill Cheswick.
[00:05:10] Who's one of the founders of the firewall. These men changed the way that we live our lives and they were having a problem with finding how to mentor people because they're so disconnected from school-aged children. And from. Others. And they said, we need to give back, but we don't know how. And so the mentor project started because they weren't alone.
[00:05:37] There are so many people who are amazing world changers, who don't have the ability to find mentees. So we always hear about how mentors oh, we should find a mentor. They have the same problem trying to find mentees. And so we started this so that they, and a couple of their friends could give back to kids in schools.
[00:06:00] [00:05:59] So bill wanted to teach quantum mechanics to fourth graders these sorts of things. And what happened is over the course of a very short time, we went from 10 people. Two more than 80, and now we have an await list. So people never expected with the mentor project for us to have a waiting list of people wanting to give back their time, their resources and their expertise for free.
[00:06:27] And we do that globally. We're in many countries, we do it through hackathons one-on-one mentorship. People are able to get one-on-one mentorship
[00:06:37] Deborah Heiser: [00:06:37] people and it blows their mind that can't believe it. But we really do open the door to have kids from around the world, have access to these great minds.
[00:06:47] For free and it's in ways like patenting our first student, a Tom received his provisional patent in January. And he worked on that with Bob cousins and [00:07:00] your a zebras. So across the board, we're trying to get it so that kids can see that they can do these amazing things regardless of where they live and that we will help to support them, to do it, to learn how to do it.
[00:07:14] And to guide them. And it's just amazing. So that's what we do. We're free. And we I think we touched about 61,000 kids last year or so and in our video content and other ways, so it's really exciting.
[00:07:29]Scott Maderer: [00:07:29] That's awesome. So what kind of what are the age ranges of the kids that get to participate?
[00:07:35] Deborah Heiser: [00:07:35] From kindergarten through university. So we don't put an age on it if you're in university and you're 36, that's okay. We'll, it really isn't age. It's more that if you're in the education system, we figure you're still looking to learn.
[00:07:48]Scott Maderer: [00:07:48] And we'll talk more about how people can get in touch with you and things at the end, but you touched on a couple of things when you were talking about, the challenges that mentors and mentees have finding each other. And I'm sure that's not the [00:08:00] only thing, but can you unpack a little bit, what are some of the challenges that you've discovered as you started working on matching these folks up and working in the system?
[00:08:09] What are some of the biggest challenges in for mentors and mentees and mentorship?
[00:08:14] Deborah Heiser: [00:08:14] I think some of the challenges are the natural ones where a lot of kids feel that they aren't. I'm not going to say worthy, but they feel like they don't, that they don't have what it takes. The, you must need something special to be able to reach out or to have a relationship with the mentors.
[00:08:35] So they're intimidated by them. And so we seek kids that will shy away from. Wanting to have a one-on-one conversation with somebody because they, they feel overwhelmed with intimidation or they won't make that initial reach. In terms of our mentors, it's very hard. If you are a, someone who's done world-changing things like an astronaut or someone who has invented [00:09:00] things to find kids around the world, it's not easy.
[00:09:03]Without looking we were joking with bill that he would look like a weirdo, a feat just walked around and said, Hey, I'd like to teach you quantum mechanics. Like he'd probably be arrested, but this is the level of difficulty that mentors and mentees face is that there's a gap where mentees feel intimidated and mentored.
[00:09:23] Can't find the mentees and they're interested, bright, brilliant kids out there who may live in, a rural town. And there's no one from Silicon valley represented. There, there are no astronauts there. So how this is an issue. So then they think how could, how cool am I to reach out? I don't even know what questions to ask.
[00:09:45] So what we've found is that when we have kids who. Just type in a question to our mentors through email, then we can put that question out to one of the mentors and they can [00:10:00] respond. And sometimes it leads to an ongoing, zoom one-on-one weekly meetups. So for example, we had a 14 year old girl who wrote in and said, I'd like to ask the question about climate change.
[00:10:14] This is something that I'm interested in. It was very vague and broad. There was no specific questionnaire and that was okay. So we put it out in three mentors, said, I'll do it, I'll do it. And I said, okay, whoever answers first can take it. So the first person who answered and it was like a day later.
[00:10:30]Ended up communicating with her. And that was a six month weekly one-on-one zoom meeting that happened. And that was Bob who doesn't have a background in climate change, but he was able to speak about it with her and she then was able to see. A perspective that she wouldn't have had and was able to develop more fine tuned questions.
[00:10:55] So that struggle between the two the mentors and the mentees is [00:11:00] always just finding where you can get access. So we're trying to remove that barrier and just make it an absolute Easy process so that anyone can have access to a mentee or to a mentor.
[00:11:15] Scott Maderer: [00:11:15] So when you think about what actually makes a good mentor, mentee relationship I think I heard a few keys already in some of your answers, but what are some of the things that have come out that, and it could include, I'm sure you find sometimes that.
[00:11:31] It doesn't work for various reasons, but what are some of the things that make that a really good beneficial relationship for both
[00:11:37] Deborah Heiser: [00:11:37] parties? It has to be a two way street for both parties. So if you're a mentee and you're coming in and you just want to tell. Then that's like Google, you can go to Google for that.
[00:11:49] You can learn something and you don't have to have a relationship, but you have to want to be in a mutually connected relationship with someone and a [00:12:00] dialogue. And that's what makes a good mentee is that you want to. Actually learn a little bit about your mentor and share a little bit about yourself.
[00:12:08] Otherwise, we can just all go on the internet and look up answers to things, but for the, and the same goes for the mentor are the, what makes a good relationship is someone who wants to have a meaningful connection with someone that wants to pass on, leave a legacy that. Person might be the person who can carry my information on farther than I've done or take it in a new level.
[00:12:36] So our mentors are all, what I see works is when people want, when they see it, not as answering in a Google, like fashion, a question that somebody is asking, but seeing how they can hopefully change the trajectory of that child's or young adults say career path or their knowledge in an area inspire them to ask more [00:13:00] questions and to feel safe doing so with this person that they aren't going to be judged or that no question is too small or unimportant.
[00:13:10] So it's really bringing relationship into the equation for both parties.
[00:13:18] Scott Maderer: [00:13:18] so w that you obviously, it has a degree of vulnerability on both sides. You've mentioned several times, the kids feeling intimidated. I'd be willing to bet there's some mentors at there too that are intimidated by the concept.
[00:13:30]It's probably just on the mentee side. So what are some of the things that maybe people can. If somebody wants to approach this, whether it's through the mentor project, or maybe it's just even reaching out to somebody that they've been afraid to reach out to on either sides of the equation, what are some of the ways that people can go about actually beginning that relationship in an effective way?
[00:13:54] Deborah Heiser: [00:13:54] So I would. With the mentor project, it's as simple as filling out our contact form, or we haven't asked a [00:14:00] mentor button, but it's as simple as sending out an email or contact and saying, Hey, I have a question. Is there anyone who can, who I can talk with about whatever broad topic they want to talk about or whatever specific question that it's as easy as that.
[00:14:13] But I would say for people who are looking for mentors or information or anything most of us are feel intimidated. It's a natural feeling or we feel vulnerable. We don't want somebody to find out. We don't know something because we're taught to present ourselves as knowing as much as possible.
[00:14:32]But everybody understands that. So if you reach out to someone and you put yourself out there and say, I don't understand that I have yet to see someone. I'm sure there is an occasional person who says, oh, how dare you ask me that question? I have no time for you, but whatever area you're going in, outside the mentor project or whatever, you have nothing to lose by going out and putting yourself out there.
[00:14:58] Even if they say [00:15:00] no. And I tell this to my college students, what do you have? What's somebody going to do there? They can't, harm you, you maybe they'll say no, but that's it. You have nothing to lose. So on that end I it's as easy as anything. To anyone in the world and with the mentor project the same and I you're right.
[00:15:20] Mentors do feel vulnerable and intimidated. In some cases there are some who say I'm intimidated by first graders and that, and so we don't pair them up with first graders and there are some who love. But one of our most popular mentors is a puppeteer who works with little kids and she's, she loves that.
[00:15:42] So we pair people up with people that they don't feel intimidated by. And that's what I think has helped.
[00:15:49] Scott Maderer: [00:15:49] Yeah. So I used to be a school teacher. And I taught sixth, seventh, eight, no, I'm sorry. Six seventh, ninth, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades over many years. And I actually used to [00:16:00] be heavily involved in something known as science fair, and take kids to the international science and engineering fair and all of that.
[00:16:06] And I actually got some experience where we've had we had a group of young ladies that we effectually named the worm girls because they're their test animal that they used was flatworms, so we call them the worm girls and they actually kinda got stuck on a problem and started doing some research and they found somebody who was an expert in it.
[00:16:25] And they're like, boy, we wish we could talk to this guy. He'd be able to help us solve the problem. And we did exactly what you're talking about. Let's email him, worst thing that person was in India, worst thing they can do is say no. And they actually ended up on a phone call, within 24 hours got their entire problem solved that gentlemen sent them a whole bunch of material that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have access to both written and actually lab, it was hilarious, at the end of the day, Yeah.
[00:16:55]You never know. So I've seen that happen before where, somebody [00:17:00] who Nobel Laureate level scientist. Very busy, he was, and yet took the time out to not only help, but actually go above and beyond and help in a way that, was beyond what anyone would have expected.
[00:17:15]They were just wanting an answer to a quick question and he went well beyond that. In fact, I think one of them. They still talk to him periodically. They're all graduated from college and long out of, into their own careers at this point. So
[00:17:27] Deborah Heiser: [00:17:27] yeah. Scott, that's how people are.
[00:17:29]People want to help others. There's an innate thing within us where we want to help others, but we have to wait for people to ask and In order to know how we can help. So I'm not surprised to hear that because he was probably thrilled to be able to help them. And so that's just one key component of this whole sort of mentor mentee relationship that I'm finding [00:18:00] is the it's like the special elixir that makes it all happen.
[00:18:04] Everyone wants to be helpful. And kids want to have relationships with individuals who can impart their knowledge. It's just really something that I think we've all overlooked. We've there's been a I know with my kids, at least the idea is to go for what take it, try to get it, a sort of a grab and go.
[00:18:25] And if we just take a step back and we look at it at instead of a grab and go which I think of as the Google, get my information, get out and we start to look at relationships. It doesn't matter if you're calling India from Texas or if you're calling. Mississippi to Silicon valley, you can still have a relationship, but it has to be from the perspective of not a grab and go, but an actual interaction and relationship with that person.
[00:18:55]Scott Maderer: [00:18:55] And I think you're right. It was very clear that. He was thrilled to help. [00:19:00] Cause what they were doing was actually right in alignment with what he did. It was his passion, so he's cool know, let me help you I'll do this. This is awesome. But it was a.
[00:19:09] Yeah. But again, there was that vulnerability in that risk that they had to take to reach out. And of course it paid off. So before we switch gears, I've got a few questions that I like to ask all of my guests. But is there anything else about the mentor project that you'd like to share or highlight or anything that I missed?
[00:19:29] Deborah Heiser: [00:19:29] Yeah. I'd like to tell you a little bit about some of our programs and a little bit about what I have learned about mentorship. Coming into this, I am not a stem expert. I'm coming at this from the perspective of being an applied developmental psychologist. I look at how people age normally across the lifespan from birth to, to the end of our lives.
[00:19:50] And what I have found is that. People get tremendous and immense pleasure midlife and beyond by being [00:20:00] able to share their expertise. Just like you mentioned with the person that called, if you, if someone, I think we can all relate to this, if someone calls you and they're interested in what you do and who doesn't want us to share that it's exciting.
[00:20:14] You can have a dialogue with someone who's calling to talk with you about something that you already enjoy. This is one thing that w we really were able to learn very clearly by having so many interactions with people. The other thing is that we're a mentor focused organization.
[00:20:30] So most organizations are set up in a sort of a hierarchical grab and go way with regard to get a mentor, get what you need. And then you're off on your own. And ours is looking at it from the perspective of what legacy can our mentors give what's their w where and to whom do they want to give back to.
[00:20:52] And we match it from that direction. So that. A person who has checked off so many [00:21:00] boxes during their lifetime can say, Hey, now I here's what I want my footprint on the world to be, this is the mark I want to leave. And so we're, we turned mentorship on its head from what is traditionally thought of, and we bring it to the world from the mentor perspective.
[00:21:19] And we really nurture our mentors. So our mentors do all collaborate with each other as well. So our experts are combining their energies and efforts and working with people in different disciplines. They've never worked with before. And we call that lateral mentorship and they're really engaged in that.
[00:21:36] So from that, because it was a mentor perspective, our mentors came on with excitement. Enthusiastic ideas to do things like start a patent team where kids can patent for free start a TV team where a telephone. Talk show
[00:21:55] Deborah Heiser: [00:21:55] came on board and she does TV segments that are put out on [00:22:00] Brooklyn free access television that goes out to a million and a half homes.
[00:22:04] And that's another team. And that was because she said, I love this. And then people said, I want to learn about it. And we have hackathons because someone in Argentina, Javier, Frank Carrio said, I love to do hackathons. Can I run them? And then everybody who was interested, hopped on board, someone wanted to make a difference with masks during the early part of the pandemic.
[00:22:25] And so kids are doing research with heart, Harvard and Stanford collaborations. And now with the journal of health design out of Australia. So they're learning how to do studies, how to write them up and how to get them published in peer reviewed journal articles and how to do all kinds of things that they might not have been exposed to.
[00:22:46] We also have a podcast channel and we have kids who are doing the podcasts and who are doing the editing and who are doing all of these things that they might not get access to normally, but they have mentors who [00:23:00] can say, Hey, do it this way. Or this is a probably tweak that might be helpful.
[00:23:05] And so it's, they take the lead on that, but we have someone who is passionate about it, who guides it. And The all of these, and we're going to be expanding it way out beyond this because every time our mentors come in with a new idea or a passion, we add a new team. And so that's where we differ from some of the others.
[00:23:25] We're not thinking up. We're not. Immersing ourself in something that's already out there, we're developing new things. And that's where we're able to get kids to do unique high level patentable projects and ideas. That's a little bit about the mentor project. And again, all of these are free and available to kids around the world.
[00:23:46]The other interesting thing is that our our mentors have all come to this from, I'd say like a position of stewardship in a way that they feel committed to [00:24:00] make the world a better place. To make the world grow and to improve upon what we already have. And so that comes from an internal an internal place.
[00:24:12] That's a little bit different than when we think of mentorship with regard to how we're going to succeed in business. It's it's almost like. At an internal basic level. And so that's what we're also trying to impart to kids is to get involved in civic engagement and get involved in the world so that they too can feel like they are an active part in the world and their community and with others.
[00:24:36]Scott Maderer: [00:24:36] And that's a perfect segue. So the first question that I always like to ask everybody, and it's, my brand is inspired stewardship and stewardship is a concept that's important to me. And you just use that when you're talking about your mentors. So can you tell me, what does the word stewardship mean to you and what impact has it had on your life?
[00:24:56] Deborah Heiser: [00:24:56] Stewardship means to me that you [00:25:00] try to hold yourself to an ethical standard where you are keeping in mind, others that are involved with you. So that my goal isn't just to achieve something that's going to benefit only me, but that it's going to benefit. As many people as possible in the best possible way.
[00:25:19] It's trying always to be as above board and beyond above board as possible. But with looking to making sure that as many people as possible are touched in a positive, ethical way. That's how I think of stewardship. And that's, I think the way that. The mentors think of it as well, because as we onboard, we're looking for people who aren't looking to network, or I'm not looking for mentors who are looking to expand a personal goal.
[00:25:48] We're looking for people. And this is truly what we're finding is the people are looking now for the, what I'm thinking of as the standard definition of stewardship, which is to improve the world in an [00:26:00] ethical, moral way.
[00:26:02] Scott Maderer: [00:26:02] How has that affected you personally, when you think about that definition and that concept,
[00:26:07] Deborah Heiser: [00:26:07] I'll tell you, I work in the field, I've worked in the field of aging for a long time. And part of my work early on was to study and my book that Co-edited years ago was about palliative care and spirituality at the end of life with regard to the palliative care.
[00:26:25] And it wasn't a religious thing. It was more like getting to, how can you look at palliative care at the time? Palliative care was thought of that if you did that, you were trying to kill people, and that truly was how people thought of it, as opposed to giving comfort and helping a person.
[00:26:41]I've spoken with a lot of people at the end of their lives. And I've found that the meaning that is most important to them is not the job they held. It's not the money they have. It isn't any of that, it's the, what [00:27:00] impact did they make to their families, to their communities and to the world. And that's what made them feel important.
[00:27:08] And like they had lived a full life. W it didn't, it never mattered. If someone, lived in a tenement and they really, struggled their whole life, they were the same exact person at the end of life, as someone who, managed a very large corporation or had a lot of degrees they, they were in the same position and their reflection on life was really looking at stewardship and a lot of ways, what did I do?
[00:27:33] How was I involved and how did it. Make a difference in the world. That is really how I am also looking at it as what, how can I take what I've learned from my work and apply it so that I can feel that way. And I can share that with others.
[00:27:54] Scott Maderer: [00:27:54] So speaking of that if we invented a machine and could magically pick you [00:28:00] up and take you into the far future, maybe a hundred to 150 years, and you were able to look back on your life, what is the impact that you hope you've left behind in the world?
[00:28:11] Deborah Heiser: [00:28:11] I would hope that people are feeling more connected and meaningful. And whether that's digitally, we're now in a very digital world, but that people are communicating in meaningful, connected ways. And that if they say, Hey, I now have a relationship with someone that I speak with regularly. On the other side of the world that people feel.
[00:28:34] That they are engaged. So 150 years from now, I looked back and I was able to see that people were connected and they were helping each other. And they were a cheerleader for others that would make me feel like my very tiny, small contribution. Might've helped to lead that to her.
[00:28:53] Scott Maderer: [00:28:53] Awesome.
[00:28:55] So what's coming next for you and the mentor project. As you [00:29:00] continue on this journey to figure out what you're con what you're doing and continue to impact the world.
[00:29:05]Deborah Heiser: [00:29:05] We're adding more countries to our list of current countries that we have to expand to bring our mentors to places that haven't had exposure to the mentors.
[00:29:16] Tanzania is coming up and Cambodia as well. We're looking at Cambodia to move in to get some great programming. And so we're trying to get as global as possible. And another important thing is we're going to be taking, there's an amazing project that we're partnering with embedded ventures there.
[00:29:38] They're bringing. They're teaching kids how to build their own eight bit computers via the internet. So they actually send the product to the school and this can be used over and over again, year after year. And it's streamed on Twitch. We're going to try to expand that around the world so that kids can get access to an eight bit computer and you them.
[00:29:58] Basic concepts of [00:30:00] computing and and hardware. And then we can do that via Twitch and people can have access to that. That's one of our big initiatives that we're hoping to expand upon. And we're also looking to now start fundraising because we have done a hundred percent of this on. Sweat from all of us, none of us are paid.
[00:30:19] We all do this. Just because we're passionate about it. And so now we're hoping to expand it with improved resources so we can reach even more people in a broader, bigger way.
[00:30:30]Scott Maderer: [00:30:30] You can find out more about Debra at the site mentor, project.org.org. She's also active on LinkedIn as Deborah Heizer. The mentor project also has its own LinkedIn page under the mentor project. And you can find the mentor project over on Facebook. The mentor, project or Instagram as mentor project.
[00:30:53] Ruth. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?
[00:30:55]Deborah Heiser: [00:30:55] I'm Debbie. I
[00:30:56] Scott Maderer: [00:30:56] know. Let me reset. I just realized I left the old name. [00:31:00] Give me a second,
[00:31:01]Debbie. Is there anything else you'd like to share with us?
[00:31:05]Deborah Heiser: [00:31:05] I'd like to invite everyone to reach out to us. If you have any questions at all, or if you'd like to dialogue with any of our amazing mentors, and please remember that it's as simple as an ask that could maybe change your life.
[00:31:21]Scott Maderer: [00:31:21] thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast as a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listened, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoy this episode. Please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.
[00:31:49] All one word iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can [00:32:00] get every episode as it comes out. Until next time, invest your time, your talent and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.
Some of the Resources recommended in this episode:
I make a commission for purchases made through the following link.
Looking at it from the perspective of what legacy can our mentors give. Where and to whom do they want to give back to? - Deborah Heiser
You can connect with Deborah using the resources below: