SNS 179: Saturday Night Special - Interview with Norm Wilsch about His Book Christ-Centered Healing of Trauma

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Welcome to tonight's Saturday Night special episode 179.

[00:00:05] Norm Wilsch: I'm Norm Welsh. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent, and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to find God even in your most stressful of times is key, and one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to.

[00:00:28] The Inspired Stewardship podcast with my friend Scott made.

[00:00:32] A victim mentality and that's why we can't move forward. I have unforgiveness that person betrayed me. I can't get over it but yes you can. If you just, Hey, it's outta your WhatsApp person says, or Judge is outta my control. I forgive them and I'm moving forward.

[00:00:52] Scott Maderer: Welcome and thank you for joining us on the Inspired Stewardship Podcast. If you truly desire to become the person who [00:01:00] God wants you to be. Then you must learn to use your time, your talent, and your treasures for your true calling. In the Inspired Stewardship podcast, you will learn to invest in yourself, invest in others, and develop your influence so that you can impact the world.

[00:01:25] In tonight's Saturday night special, I interview Norm Welsh. I asked Norm about his time as a police officer and his time as a prisoner. Norm shares how his journey led him to a faith-based approach to dealing with trauma, and norm also shares what we can do to help others when they are dealing with trauma.

[00:01:44] One area that a lot of folks need some help with is around the area of productivity. Getting not just more things done, but actually getting the right things done can be really tough. [00:02:00] I've got a course called Productivity for Your Passion that's designed to help you do this and then to hold you accountable and walk with you so that you can tailor productivity, not just to be getting more done, but actually getting the right things done.

[00:02:18] What's more, we take the approach of looking at your personality and how you actually look at things in the world and tailor the productivity system to your person. Because the truth is, a lot of the systems that are out there are written really well for somebody with a particular personality type. But if you have a different approach to things, they just don't work.

[00:02:41] But there's tools and techniques and approaches that you can take that will work for anyone, and we help you do that and productivity for your passion. Check it out over@inspiredstewardship.com slash launch. Techniques and approaches. Norm Wealth was a police officer for 26 years, [00:03:00] and we helped do that of those as an cover narcotic.

[00:03:03] Check it out. Rising to the position of commandment com, norm experienced mini traumatic incidents during his career. In 1998, he was diagnosed with an incurable neuromuscular disease that caused the loss of feeling mobility and strength in his hands and feet after 30 surgeries to stabilize his feet.

[00:03:22] Norm. An addiction to opioids. Norm was later diagnosed with work-related P T S D, and then his daughter was diagnosed with a serious illness with a poor prognosis. This caused norm to go into a downward spiral that he never recovered from After a failed suicide attempt, he made a series of poor decisions that eventually landed him in federal prison with the possibility that he was going to prison and may die there.

[00:03:48] He answered a calling to. God placed people in his path to teach him the gospel. He had never believed in God, but he knew that God was calling him to minister to police [00:04:00] officers. Who themselves were suffering from trauma. While in prison, he obtained a master's degree in Theology and Christian Counseling, doctorate degree in Christian counseling and a certificate as a California registered Alcohol and Drug addiction counselor.

[00:04:14] He found himself counseling inmates while in prison preaching God's word and leading Bible studies. God healed his daughter and healed his PTSD through a Christ-centered healing process. Together. They experienced God's healing, power and transformation through biblical principles. After just eight years of a 14 year sentence, he was released due to Covid 19.

[00:04:38] Norm went on to write a book called Christ-Centered Healing of Trauma, healing a Broken Heart, and he just finished up a companion book called Christ-Centered Healing of Trauma. The Study Guide that's Perfect for use in small groups like Within a Church. Welcome

[00:04:54] Norm Wilsch: to the show. Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

[00:04:57] Thank you.

[00:04:57] Scott Maderer: Norm, we talked a little bit in the [00:05:00] intro. You've had a, an interesting journey and background to get where you are today. Would you talk a little bit more about why have you decided to really focus on the Christ-centered healing, the trauma, the P T S D, and why has your journey led you to that message?

[00:05:20] Norm Wilsch: Because P T S D I shouldn't say PTSD T, but trauma infiltrates every life. If you haven't been through a traumatic event, don't worry. You will. And I, we all handle it in different ways, right? And most of us do not know how to properly cope with those negative emotions. And that was me.

[00:05:39] That's how I started to use pills was because I was. Self-medicating. I was trying to get rid of those negative emotions the panic attacks, anxiety, and it was completely wrong, right? That's not how we go about managing these emotions. So when I started studying the Bible and I realized what [00:06:00] God says about handling your emotions, I first, basically, I was healed from, I haven't had a negative PTSD emotion now for probably eight years and.

[00:06:12] Simple, but people don't know about it, and we can go, I went to a psychologist, a psychiatrist, for three years. Not that they didn't help, they really did help me, but there was no healing. And I believe that only God can heal. And so these principles from the Bible teach us how to heal. So we don't have to cope with these emotions anymore and if we keep up with it, then future events, overwhelming events that happen in our lives, we can keep up on.

[00:06:41] And we don't have to be oppressed by these negative emotions.

[00:06:44] Scott Maderer: So for you with your journey as a police officer and doing all of that what was the trauma. I don't wanna say what was the trauma that was inflicted on you, but basically what brought you [00:07:00] to have to deal with trauma and why do you think that's so common for folks that are first responders and in that

[00:07:06] Norm Wilsch: industry?

[00:07:06] First responders really see the worst that Satan has to offer, right? It's, I wouldn't say a daily basis, but it's very common. I think they did a study that police officer goes through at least 180 traumas during their career For instance, I was only on for a few months when I was responded to a plane crash.

[00:07:26] This plane crash right into the roof of a local mall, a two-story mall. And it was the day before Christmas and it was literally 50 yards from where Santa was. And 14 died and there was like 70 people injured. And when I got there, it was like a war zone. It's something that just overwhelms the system, right?

[00:07:46] We're not meant to. Witnessing this type of thing, right? It's out of the societal norm. I've been shot at I, I've witnessed children be shot and killed by a parent. [00:08:00] I've been there given mouth to kids that have drowned that they were obviously dead. You can't not do anything with a parent there.

[00:08:08] So all these things add up. And then once you're done with something like this, you're expected to go on to the next. The fire firemen too when they go out and they see a couple deaths in a fire. They just can't take the time. Okay I need time to relax. I need time to process this. No, the next call is the next call and you gotta go to that next call.

[00:08:32] But I don't think police agencies and f and fire agencies are really doing the necessary things to help, because. It's I hate to say this, but it's looked down upon to be weak. Right? So if I were, ha would have went back and said, okay, a boss, I need to. I need to talk to somebody. What I saw today was horrible and I'm really having a bad time with it, [00:09:00] that they would send you to a a psychologist, but it's a city paid psychologist.

[00:09:05] And if you told, if I would've said yeah, last night, I put a gun in my mouth and I was really seriously thinking about committing suicide. You wouldn't work again. That would just be it because cops and firemen I'll include medical workers, EMT workers emergency room workers.

[00:09:20] You're expected to have that warrior mentality. You have to go out, you have to be able to bury your emotions and go on to the next thing. It's difficult. .

[00:09:28] Scott Maderer: So you mentioned finding faith and that helping you with the healing, but what was your faith journey like before and after

[00:09:40] Norm Wilsch: It was none.

[00:09:40] When the things I saw for 25 years I was actually 26 and a little over, but the things that I saw always made me wonder how there could be a loving God. With all these horrible things going on, right? I was born into a Christian family, but like most Christians, we went to [00:10:00] church maybe on a Christmas Eve once a year, if e if even that.

[00:10:04] And not to say they weren't spiritual, but that there was no practice there. But I didn't realize that, that God loves you and there's reasons and purposes for what's happening, even though it's difficult for us to understand and explain. We have to understand that there is a plan and purpose for each of us.

[00:10:22] So when I pick me for existence I made these horrible decisions that landed me in prison. There was just stupid idiotic things I did. Yeah, he could have prevented it if he wanted to, but I think that he had a plan and purpose for my life and he allowed me to go through these things that I went through, even though they were very painful, very scary, and trauma.

[00:10:43] But now he put in my heart, listen you've got this experience now to help people and I want you to go out and help people. And that's why I do these things.

[00:10:51] Scott Maderer: It just to be, we talked about it in the intro you were dealing with not only the trauma of the job and [00:11:00] what you were seeing, which we referenced several times, but you had a health crisis.

[00:11:04] You had things going on in your family with your daughter, do you think part of the issue was that it was piling on or could any one of these things been enough to have triggered that kind of downward spiral?

[00:11:18] Norm Wilsch: For me, I was handling the the P T S D aspect of it pretty well until I started to use the pills.

[00:11:26] But that wasn't until after all my surgeries. And I think that's what made me a good cop. And that's what why I got promoted was cuz I was really doing a good job on managing that, that crap. I would come home sometimes in the middle of the night, I'd get up and go downstairs and cry, but at work I was able to do the job.

[00:11:44] But then when this disease hit me in 1998 it's called peripheral neuropathy. So it's just a diabetic's habit, but I'm not a diabetic. But I began to have these ulcers on the bottom of my feet, these big blist. And then that was complicated by [00:12:00] charcoal Marie Tooth Disease, which is a atrophy of the muscles in the extremities.

[00:12:05] So both my nerves and my muscles were deadening in my feet and in my hands. So they had to do 30 surgeries in a 10 year period on my feet. And they kept giving me these pills the opioids, the Percocet and Vicodin, and all kinds of stuff. I had no feeling in my feet. And I'm not blaming the doctors because the doctors have obligation to.

[00:12:25] To control our pain. It was, should have been me that said, Hey, I, I don't need these pills. But as I took the pills, like every once in a while, look, I get a headache or something, but I realized that they were taking the edge off of my anxiety and my panic attacks I was having that they made me not have to feel.

[00:12:44] So pretty soon, every time something came up where I would have these flashbacks of certain things that happened at work, I'd take a pill and pretty soon it was two. Pretty soon it was three. And then pretty soon it was 10 a day. Then it was 20 a day. It just, it's a, [00:13:00] it's a self-medication process that we just don't want to feel.

[00:13:04] And so I think that it, one thing I could have handled two things I wasn't handling very. And then when my daughter got diagnosed with liver tumors and they told us that the surgery was only it was only a 50% survival of the surgery, I went into that downward spiral, and that's when the suicidal ideation came in.

[00:13:25] And and I just was a basket case. I, and. because I thought that I was responsible for my daughter's you premature death because my dna n a was obviously flawed because I was going through all these things and I gave it to her. That's false thinking, right? And that's what we do.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Scott Maderer: Li liver cancer and what you have are not genetically related to other, I have a degree genetics, I can attest to that

[00:13:48] Norm Wilsch: But there's Satan is on your shoulder right there. Saying, look it,

[00:13:52] Scott Maderer: but you still, you always feel responsible as a parent for anything that happens to your children.

[00:13:56] Even things that you bear no responsibility for. It doesn't matter [00:14:00] you, of

[00:14:00] Norm Wilsch: course. E Exactly. And it was about a week later where I made my first suicide attempt. And and then the bad decisions came, and my crime spree was literally for three weeks. And then that was it. And then I was arrested about a month later it's. So I think it piles on, it's cumulative. It's just like what police go through, firemen witnessing this on a daily basis or even a monthly basis. Combat veterans come back and they do an 18 month stint and they see some horrific things. But if you think about what they see compared to what first responders see over a 25 year career.

[00:14:37] There's no comparison, right? I'm not trying to put down combat bats. I They're I've never done it and I couldn't do it. And I I praise them and I'm so grateful for what they do. But people don't think about if, especially in. child abuse cases. child is victimized for years and years on end.

[00:14:57] That, that takes really, it breaks your [00:15:00] heart and it puts that person into a spin where it's gonna affect them their whole lives.

[00:15:05] Scott Maderer: So let's define some terms and then I wanna circle back and ask you something about what you just said. We've been talking about PTs d we've been talking about trauma What are those things and who is affected by

[00:15:18] Norm Wilsch: them?

[00:15:18] P T S D is post-traumatic stress disorder. Technically in the in the psychology books, it says that you have to have a life-threatening event or a near death experience to where you, you get P T S D and there's different levels of PTSDs, there's acute and so on. But It's like beauty in the eyes of beholder, right?

[00:15:40] It all depends on your resilience to that traumatic event. You could be a child that was bitten by a dog at a young age and you could actually get PTSD T s D from that event and carry it on into your adulthood. A nasty divorce. For some people it could be so traumatic that it stays with them the rest of their life so it doesn't have [00:16:00] to be an a life or death experience.

[00:16:02] I, the psychology books say so, but I believe that even my things that we would think is minor, like maybe a traffic accident that could put somebody into a downward spiral, will never get into a car again. And these are the things, so

[00:16:15] Scott Maderer: everyone is susceptible part of it, how they perceive the event.

[00:16:19] And again you say a life threatening event, but I can tell you that there's been some events that I've been in that other people look at me and go, dude, That was li and I'm like, no, it wasn't. I was fine. Yeah. And vice versa. There's things that I see and I'm threatened by, and other people are like, why is that scary to you, why is that intimidating?

[00:16:38] So do you think perception has something to do with it?

[00:16:40] Norm Wilsch: Yes. It is perception and your resilience, if you're. I believe that if you're in a religious type background of a Christ Christian or some kind of faith where you believe in there's something greater than yourself, I think there you have more resilience.

[00:16:56] I didn't have that everything was, woe is me. [00:17:00] Why is this happening to me? Why? How come I thought I was going crazy. I believe that with the faith now it's a lot easier to go through these things cuz understanding who God is. But you're right, it all is perception.

[00:17:15] So if you see the car coming at you when you get into that crash, it's gonna be different than somebody that wasn't paying attention and was reading a book or whatever, or you're exactly right. But the trauma can affect all of us. And what people don't understand, which I didn't understand, was.

[00:17:30] The trauma that we go through often or over, maybe not even trauma, overwhelming life events that sometimes we go through. It's not that event that keeps us suppressed, right? It's our response to that event. And that's what a lot of people don't understand. If we look at that event as something.

[00:17:50] To produce growth. It's very difficult. And some people might be laughing at me, but it's true. You have to look at it from a godly perspective. If you look at it from a godly perspective, it [00:18:00] changes everything. So you. I think too. And you mentioned combat veterans and you mentioned others, and we were just talking about the fact that it doesn't necessarily have to be a life-threatening event, but what I think it's also important to recognize and I wanted your take on this, that two different people can go through the exactly the same event and yet one of them.

[00:18:24] Scott Maderer: Can be affected for the rest of their life. And the other quote unquote gets over it. And I hate that expression cuz I don't think you ever really get over trauma, but you get past it. Maybe is a better way of putting it. Why do you think it is so different for different people, even the same

[00:18:39] Norm Wilsch: event? I think it all goes, comes down, like I said, resilience, right?

[00:18:43] How you were raised if you were raised in a loving family. So if you come from different backgrounds, that also affects everything. So if you have a family where maybe you were rejected, maybe you were abandoned, all these things come into play. It's not just a simple thing that, hey I was a victim of a [00:19:00] crime and now the rest of my life is screwed up.

[00:19:02] It's everything. Your worldview, your value system, everything comes into play there. and I believe the only way that we can really heal is through godly methods. Now, you're never gonna forget about it. It's always gonna be there. But what it does, especially in the book, what it does is it takes the weight off of your shoulders, right?

[00:19:22] And so you don't have to carry around the weight of being a victim of trauma. You can say, okay this is what happened. I understand. I know that God has the best intentions for me and something is good is gonna come out of this and you can move forward instead of being stuck in that woe as me like I was trying to manipulate and control everything, but realistically we can't do that because God's in charge.

[00:19:46] Scott Maderer: The difference between. Something that's happened and something that's happened to me, so to speak. There, it's a very subtle difference to say those two sentences, but that's a very different mental [00:20:00] outlook of, cuz if it happened to me then it's almost like some it's interesting to me that sometimes people that don't have a deep faith, but also think, but the universe is somehow conspiring against me.

[00:20:11] And it's it's almost a weird dichotomy. Wait, , you know how,

[00:20:17] Norm Wilsch: No, you're exactly right. And that's what keeps us oppressed, right? That's what keeps us in that victim mentality. And that's why we can't move forward. I have unforgiveness that person betrayed me. I can't get over it but yes, you can.

[00:20:32] If you just, Hey, it's outta your, what that person says or does is outta my control. I forgive them and I'm moving forward. It's right. The battle is in the mind. It really is. It's in the mind and Paul says it best when these thoughts come up, just take it at captive. And I. Compare it to what the Bible says.

[00:20:50] If it's not congruent to what the Bible says, forget it. Move forward. Stop living in the past. I know that, that sounds simpler. That's e easy

[00:20:59] Scott Maderer: to say. [00:21:00] Not always

[00:21:00] Norm Wilsch: easy to do but I swear you, you can do it. If I could do it where I was at, anybody can do it.

[00:21:06] Scott Maderer: What was it like going to prison as a police officer?

[00:21:12] Norm Wilsch: Oh, it the, again, the battle is in the mind. I was freaking out. I was stressed. I had stomach aches constantly. I spent my first year in a suicide cell because my family Not shocking. . Yeah. And, but that made me angry god has a purpose. I was able to study the Bible all by myself alone and then when they transferred me to Fort Worth, Texas, where I was in prison.

[00:21:38] I was scared to death, but God put people in front of my, in front of me to tell me, Hey, listen this is what you do. I, these other people were in prison too, and they told me, Hey, this is the way to get through it. And I basically spent most of my time in the chapel. There were incidents where I was threatened God protected me during the whole time.

[00:21:58] So it was all in my [00:22:00] mind that I was freaking out and I made some good friends. They looked past who I was before and they saw who I was beginning to become as not that same person. And God brought me through it and To be honest, I think that if he were to come down right now and say, Hey, let's do a do-over that, you don't have to go to prison.

[00:22:19] You don't have to go through all the things you went through, I would turn it down because I'm a much better person now from having learned what I did during the last 11 years than who I was in the past. Yeah. I was a cop. I was doing, trying to do the right thing. I didn't like myself.

[00:22:37] I wasn't comfortable with myself, and I was already in prison, to be honest with you, it was just no bars, so I was, Had I experienced more peace in prison than I, I've done without going to prison. So I think that these things that God allows us to go through are meant for our own good.

[00:22:56] And I think it was for me, but it wasn't like in the [00:23:00] movies that everybody's getting stabbed every day and stuff. It wa it wasn't really like

[00:23:03] Scott Maderer: that. . Yeah. My, my father actually worked as a counselor and a, and. Minimum security prison, but it was still a prison.

[00:23:11] And people don't always understand that minimum security prison is still a prison and you and I went and visited several times and actually spoke to, he was doing, he was part of the program that as the, as folks got closer to release, they put them the, through this program to teach 'em how to go interview for a job and these sorts of things because many of.

[00:23:30] Guys had never had a chance to learn things like that they were not necessarily where they were because of. Of, like you said, it was bad choices that they had made and the idea was if they taught 'em these skills, then perhaps that would lower the recidivism rate. It was actually really successful.

[00:23:49] A lot of these guys did not return to prison that had gone through the program. And I went, I don't know, three or four times and spoke to guys that were they were usually within two years of getting [00:24:00] out. And it always amazed me how, number one, how many stories there were, how. Very men and that I would've liked to hang out with.

[00:24:12] And it, I, it's not this picture, we have this picture of what it means to be a prisoner. It's like they're people , that's really all they are. They're people that have gotten where they are through usually bad choices that they made.

[00:24:26] Norm Wilsch: No, you're exactly right. And prison reform is a whole nother issue we could talk hours about.

[00:24:30] But Dad, that's why I. I, I felt the calling because I didn't realize that. Why people use drugs, okay. Or drink alcohol. Why? The police academy is just okay, they're committing a crime, black and white. That's it. Go to jail, right? That's just it. But when you talk to these guys, like you just said, and you find out their stories, and like one guy, it was a gangster all his life, but when he, he said that when his mom died at 14, his dad shot him up with [00:25:00] heroin just to have someone.

[00:25:01] to get high with. How does a guy like that come out of that situation and do something positive? It's the we really need to rethink that this prison thing and I believe that prison has a necessity and there are people that deserve it and should stay there forever, a lifetime.

[00:25:21] But like you said, there are some very good people and I was really amazed to meet some very good people who just through life circumstances, just made some stupid mistakes. And that's not again, I don't wanna dissuade and I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but I'll give you my view and then let you weigh in on it.

[00:25:39] Scott Maderer: That doesn't mean that there's not responsibility. That doesn't mean that they didn't have the chance to make other choices. They're not, again, that. People, a victim that have no power and no authority and no ability to choose. And I don't think that we're that way. At the same time I, if you're dealt the wrong deck of [00:26:00] cards, it also is much, much harder to make those right choices.

[00:26:03] You're putting someone in an environment where that's not, it's not that it can't happen, but it's much more difficult, if that makes sense.

[00:26:11] Norm Wilsch: No, you're exactly right. It, it is responsibility and that's why we really need to rethink it. And I'm not saying that they're victims, but they do have responsibility to, to follow the rules.

[00:26:26] But I think that we're making a big mistake when we're not doing like what you guys were doing and helping people. Teaching 'em give, giving 'em a high school education, teaching 'em how to manage money because when you come out, you and you have a felony on your record. It's a vicious cycle, right?

[00:26:43] Yeah. They say recidivism is high. They go get

[00:26:46] Scott Maderer: a job, and yet nobody wants hired you, .

[00:26:48] Norm Wilsch: Nobody wants to hire you. And then you have no skills because you sit in prison, it's like a warehouse. They sit you on the shelf and you sit there for three, four years, whatever the case may be.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] And I'm glad that, that prison he was working in did that. The prisons that I worked in said they did that, but they didn't, but they offered no incentive. But the guys like me who really wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. But I had extra money. See, so when I went to college, I was able to pay for it so my wife still worked and so she was able to buy, pay for the college tuition and stuff.

[00:27:24] A lot of these guys have absolutely nothing. And if you take making 15 cents at a prison job an. He's not gonna pay for college tuition.

[00:27:32] Scott Maderer: So when we think about maybe we've got someone in our life that is dealing with trauma, maybe even we suspect has P T S D what are some of the things that we can do to help support them or help guide them maybe to making some of not going down the self-medication route and some of these things, but making choices that would help them.

[00:27:56] Norm Wilsch: first thing is to definitely say something. My, my wife, she [00:28:00] watched me go through a couple years of deep depression and she never said anything. Then when she did, started to say something what we do is we put up that fake facade, right? No, everything's good. Don't worry about me.

[00:28:11] There's nothing good. But if she would've just came to me, sat me down, said, listen, I see these different personality changes in. and I don't understand what's going on with you. Please speak to me. Yeah. I might have still blocked her off be because of my job. It's not easy coming home and saying, yeah, I had a traffic accident today and I saw a guy beheaded.

[00:28:30] You don't really want to tell that to the family, but there's other ways to bring it. But I believe that if a coworker of mine would. Said something and a couple of 'em had had told me afterwards, yeah we saw the changes in you. Why didn't you say something? But if you have the warrior mentality in, in, in this type of job, Or in, in different cultures too.

[00:28:54] The Hispanic and the black culture, you don't seek help. You don't ask for help. You're [00:29:00] the man and you just deal with it. But if somebody comes up to you and says, please I see these changes in you. Can we talk? And then just being loving about it. A lot of people will excuse what's wrong with you, no, there's, yeah. If it's all in, in the delivery, right? Hey, I see these things. I notice these changes in you. Are you okay? Can we sit down and talk? But once you start accusing somebody there's gotta be something wrong with you. Like my dad he never understood.

[00:29:27] He is a World War II veteran and I. The issues that he was going through. But he would never admit it. He goes, no I'm good. Everything is fine. Everything is fine. And you just pull up your bootstraps and move forward. Don't think about it. that's the old school. So I think a loving approach and if necessary, maybe even an intervention.

[00:29:46] I think if my wife would've got maybe a coworker of mine or two to come I think that would've made a big difference too. So I've got a few questions that I like to ask all my guests, but before I, I ask that is there anything else you'd like to [00:30:00] share about the Christ-Centered Healing of Trauma book or any, anything else we've talked about

[00:30:05] today?

[00:30:06] The book was designed for those that are suffering, that, that are going through painful events that are. just can't seem to move forward after something happened. They ruminate over a betrayal or a divorce and they just can't seem to move forward. And it has the biblical principles in there that we can follow that'll actually heal that, not just learn to cope with, but heal.

[00:30:27] So I just want to say lastly is that there is hope, there is healing. If you want to do it it's not the easiest thing to do because you have to go through and do a, an. Evaluation of your responsibility in this matter. And you have to forgive people and you have to ask for forgiveness of things that you might have done.

[00:30:48] And this is God's commands that we do this. So the book will help you get through those emotional difficulties that you're having.

[00:30:58] Scott Maderer: So my brand is [00:31:00] inspired stewardship, and run things through that lens of stewardship, and yet that's one of those words that I've discovered.

[00:31:05] Kinda like trauma . We all use it, but we never actually really define it. So what does the word stewardship mean to you? And what does that understanding how has that impacted your life?

[00:31:17] Norm Wilsch: I believe it means responsible management of what God's given you. So we all have spiritual gifts. We all have e even if you don't wanna call 'em spiritual, we all have gifts.

[00:31:27] Some people are good listeners, some people are good at managing money, whatever the case may be. If God gives you a. To, to manage that properly, to use it. If you believe that you're a good listener, God put that in you, right? And if you're not going out there and helping people by, by listening, I believe you're not doing good stewardship of god's gifts.

[00:31:48] So it's managing what he's given to you, cuz all good things come from him and we've got to use those in a proper manner.

[00:31:59] Scott Maderer: So [00:32:00] this is my favorite question and we'll see what you think about it. If I invented this magic machine and I was able to pluck you from where you are today and transport you into the future, 150, maybe 200 years, and through the power of this machine, you were able to look back on your entire life and see all of the relationships, all of the connections, all of the ripples, and all of the impacts you've made, what impact do you hope you've left on the.

[00:32:24] Norm Wilsch: That's a tough one. But I believe that if one person can be helped through my testimony or through the things that I've been through and say, wow I see things now differently and I'm not gonna go down that road that norm went, I think at least one person I think that would make everything that I've went through.

[00:32:51] Scott Maderer: So what's on the roadmap? What's coming next here as you look forward to

[00:32:55] Norm Wilsch: 2023? I just wrote a book that's at the publisher now on why God [00:33:00] allows suffering. Cause I think people need to understand. I think that's the age old question. That's been thousands of years. And I spent two years studying the Bible.

[00:33:10] It's an honest, some people don't want to, I probably don't want to read it because it's honest, but it's honestly why God allows us to go through these things. I would like to, I'm studying to be a chaplain. I'm going through the courses and I would really like to be a first responder chaplain. The thing that's happening now is that because of my record, No cop will talk to me because I'm considered a scumbag, I'm a criminal. So I hope, and I hope that through interviews like this and showing people that, hey, you can be redeemed. You can come back and maybe you can come back better person. And through what you've been through, maybe you could prevent others from going through that, or at least help others that are going.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] And that's what I would really like to do, is be a first responder chaplain to really help these guys through this difficult time because no matter what the administrations say right now that they are changing things and they are but down at the street level it's still people are afraid to come forward.

[00:34:16] Scott Maderer: I still think it is definitely better now than it was 40 years ago or 20 years ago, but I agree and I know a good. First responders as well as military and e and the military culture is similar in terms of, yeah, you don't ask for help, you just suck it up and get through it mindset.

[00:34:36] But it, I do think that mental health is becoming more normalized, but it's still not anywhere close to what it needs to be. I would agree a hundred percent. Yeah. Yes. You can follow Norm on Facebook as Christ Centered Healing or over on Twitter as Christ underscore [00:35:00] trauma, or you can find out more about Norm and his book over on the website, Christ hyphen centered healing.com.

[00:35:09] Norm, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?

[00:35:13] Norm Wilsch: No, I just, like I said, the message is there is hope and there is.

[00:35:25] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the Inspired Stewardship Podcast. As a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes.

[00:35:51] Rate all one word, iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review and how [00:36:00] to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get every episode as it comes out in your. Until next time, invest your time, your talent, and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.