SNS 129: Saturday Night Special – Interview with the author of The Couragous Ask Brian Kreeger

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Welcome to tonight's Saturday night, special episode 129.

[00:00:04] Brian Kreeger: Hi, I'm Brian Kreeger. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others and develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to be a courageous Christian leader is key.

[00:00:24] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this, the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott.

[00:00:32] But it happens. So you watched God perform all these miracles and then you just are cruising along and you're always giving God the credit for all of it. You're giving God the credit for all of it. But then, but there comes a shift where your humanness starts to jump in there and you say, you know what?

[00:00:52] I do raise most of the money.

[00:00:54] Scott Maderer: Welcome. And thank you for joining us on the inspired stewardship podcasts. If [00:01:00] you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired stewardship podcast. We'll learn to invest in yourself.

[00:01:13] Invest in. And develop your influence so that you can impact the world.

[00:01:20] it. Tonight? Saturday night, special. I interview Arthur speaker and consultant Brian Krieger. I asked Brian about his book, the courageous. I also asked Brian to share with you, how has experienced suffering a leadership failure as a Christian leader affected him personally and him on his leadership journey.

[00:01:40] I also ask Brian to share why leadership is so important and requires having a community around you to be done. One reason I like to bring you great interviews. Like the one you're going to hear today is because of the power in learning from. Another great way to learn from others is [00:02:00] through reading books.

[00:02:01] But if you're like most people today, you find it hard to find the time to sit down and read. And that's why today's podcast is brought to you by audible. Go to inspired stewardship.com/audible to sign up and you can get a 30 day free trial. There's over 180,000 titles to choose from. And instead of reading, you can listen your way to learn from some of the greatest minds out there.

[00:02:29] That's inspired stewardship.com/audible to get your free trial and listen to great books the same way you're listening to this podcast. Brian Krieger is an Arthur speaker and non-profit. In 2012, he founded a faith-based free health clinic that served as a vehicle to share. Christ's love through primary healthcare in an urban poverty stricken setting.

[00:02:53] After growing the organization significantly in four years, Brian experienced his own leadership fall. Due to [00:03:00] the pressures of his work and his own human weakness inspired by his experience. He decided to use his mistakes and his position as a restored fallen leader for the glory of God and help others while they work hard to impact the world around them.

[00:03:14] Brian has served on the boards of several prominent, local and state nonprofits in various capacities setting on seven at the time of the. Brian lives in central Pennsylvania with his wife, Dawn two grown children and three grandchildren where he enjoys golfing and cycling. Welcome to the

[00:03:32] Brian Kreeger: show, bro. Hey, thanks for having me, Scott, I've been looking forward to this.

[00:03:37] Scott Maderer: Absolutely. It's great to have you. And I was, and thinking about this book the courageous ask, I know a lot of it you shared came from some of your own personal experiences as well. Could you talk a little bit more about your own journey and what has got you to the point of writing this book to.

[00:03:57] Brian Kreeger: I'll tell ya. I [00:04:00] spent most of my adult career. I spent running grocery stores. I was a manager in grocery stores. And then about I guess it was about 20 years in I found myself, I was doing tons of ministry at church. I was counseling. I was running events. I was going on at least two missions trips a year.

[00:04:21] I was. Running a adult Sunday school, I was doing everything. In fact, we had a church of, I don't know, about a thousand and if something was going on in the church that I wasn't involved with. I was almost offended because I was involved in so much. And I started to recognize this as a problem in my life because I wasn't having the impact that, that I wanted to have.

[00:04:45] Cause I was so spread. I was spread thin the whole way across all these ministries that I was doing. And it's the classic I was doing instead of being if you've ever heard that phrase. So I went and I met with my pastor and this [00:05:00] and that. And I started to realize I am not stewarding my time in such a manner that it's going to have that heavy amount of impact.

[00:05:09] I had no focus whatsoever. I just wanted to be involved in everything. Anyway, what came out of that is I had to identify how God had uniquely gifted me and created me. And this pastor gave me this book, actually it was a Bob Buford's game plan. And by the way, yeah, it's a, it is a great book, but it, I don't think it necessarily has the intention of what I got out of.

[00:05:36] It helped me to identify exactly. Mainly written for the second half of life. Yeah. It's kinda like half time. And but what I got out of it is, was the identification of how what did God create me for? Okay. Anyway go on down the line a little bit. I ended up being a guy that ran grocery stores for over 20 years, [00:06:00] opening a free clinic in our city.

[00:06:02] What it really came down to was urban children. And that turned into a lot of different things, but it ended up, I ended up founding a free clinic in our city, a faith-based Christian clinic in our city. And so it went well, of course there's tons and tons of details, but what happened was we got about four years in and I started the struggle And I started to tell people I was struggling and the struggles were all mine, but man, I needed some help.

[00:06:38] And what happened was I ended up sitting in front of my board and of course, again, tons of details, but I had to tell them that I was involved in a three month emotional. It didn't go beyond that, but it was still was not what God would want from me. So I took it to the board. I told them [00:07:00] about this and one of the, and I took responsibility for it.

[00:07:04] There was no question. Who am I going to blame? It's my fault. And God was really working on me and. One of the board members looks up at me and I've just told them all this stunning information about what was going on. Nobody could believe it. And he looked at me and he said now this is a former missionary just sold out to God, to the Lord and the whole bed.

[00:07:27] And he looks up at me and in his maturity, he's probably in his sixties. He says to me, Brian, what role did your position or, and our organization has. In what you've just shared. And I thought about it. I, number one, I had never thought about that. He totally stunned me. I didn't know how to answer his question.

[00:07:48] I don't even think I ever did, but it started this thought process in me that, yes, there's no question. This was my issue. I take complete responsibility, [00:08:00] but there are some facets of leadership that are inherent in leadership that do cause stumbling blocks. That if we're not watching, if other people aren't watching that they can gain control of your leadership and who you are, and it can change who you are.

[00:08:20] So a couple of years go by and I'm just thinking about this and. I'll I'll cut the story there. Cause there's so many details, but it has as its product. Me recognizing that God doesn't want that to go to waste. God wants me as a form of stewardship to use those things in my life to, to further.

[00:08:46] To further his purposes. And that's where the book came from, because I don't want to waste the junk. God doesn't even waste our junk. So that's where the book came from. And [00:09:00] I had thought about it for a couple of years and. Tons of conversations, tons of interviews, tons of coffees, breakfast lunches, and an inspiration that, that got me to this point.

[00:09:14] Scott Maderer: So if you had to share in a nutshell your one sentence elevator pitch so to speak of the book, what's really, what is the message of the.

[00:09:24] Brian Kreeger: The tagline on the book is a proactive approach to prevent the fall of Christian nonprofit leaders. But if I had to put a little parentheses behind that, I would say everybody has a role.

[00:09:36] Number one, the leader has a role in preventing and being proactive prevent to prevent that fall. Number one. But there are a lot of people around the leader that also have a role that, that we don't necessarily pay attention to. So I'm getting a little long on my elevator speech, but my elevator speech really is everybody has.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Number one, the leader, but there's a lot of people around the leader that can impact the leader. Of that executive or pastor or whoever it happens to be. I really focus on Christian non-profit leaders.

[00:10:14] Scott Maderer: And that's I would imagine that one of the dangers with a book like this is that tap dance between personal responsibility, personal choice and the fact like, and you've said it several times in this the end of the day.

[00:10:31] Your failings were yours and other leaders that have issues. It's there's we. We choose long, the wrong path. We make the wrong decision. And again, that happens Christian leader, non-Christian leader. I think we all can tell those stories. And yet you're also talking about what we, the other people, the organization, the people that surround the leader, the role that they have as well.

[00:10:58] Can you share a little bit. What is [00:11:00] that balance or what does that tap dance between what we can do, maybe if we're part of an organization, not in leadership or maybe we're on a board or if we are the leader ourselves those different levels.

[00:11:11] Brian Kreeger: What ha what happens is Scott.

[00:11:13] People, everybody says, we know our leaders, human they have our own FA they have the same failings as us. They have the same difficulties, they have the same struggles and that isn't some, somewhat of an abstract idea. Just hanging out there until the leader proves it. Okay. Until the leader proves it.

[00:11:37] Up to that how many times have you heard somebody? And I have to say I've done this I've served on, I don't know, up to 20 boards. I don't know how many boards now, but you see a struggle and it happens in a blows up and you look back and you go, I saw it coming. Yeah. I saw that. That was, I don't know why I didn't do anything [00:12:00] about it.

[00:12:01] I saw, we all saw it coming. And I've had to be on a board where we've released. I think two boards actually, where we released the leader and so many people sit around the table and go. We saw it coming, but they didn't do anything about it. I didn't do anything about it. So either we didn't have the courage to go confront it, which is where the title comes from.

[00:12:22] The courageous ask is ask the leader, asking those tough questions, but also the people around them, especially their accountability structures. There should be someone, if not a couple of people on that accountability structure, whether that's an elder board or a board of directors, whatever That should be close enough to that leader that they can see it coming.

[00:12:44] Number one, because sometimes they don't, they really don't see it coming. And then you have to ask why didn't they see it coming? So my main point is, Hey, we need to pay a 10. We recognize that they have struggles. It's like [00:13:00] I'll tell a board of directors, Hey, would you rather have a 20% shortfall at the end of the year, a year on your P and L or a very public fall of your leader who you hire and you supervise, what would you prefer to have.

[00:13:16] Hey, I'll take that 20%.

[00:13:18] Scott Maderer: Nobody answers that. Other than think the 20%,

[00:13:21] it's

[00:13:21] Brian Kreeger: not even an argument. So nobody argues that point, but yet, why are we not being proactive, getting out in front of it? Because once it happens. And then you're explaining things to donors and

[00:13:35] Scott Maderer: supporters, and now you've got a 20% of shortfall for a different reason.

[00:13:40] Brian Kreeger: That's exactly right. So let's get out in front of. And I go into the community. I go into the board of directors. I go into all the constituencies that exist under or around that leader. We need to pay attention if, and when you

[00:13:54] Scott Maderer: share one or two things that. Again, maybe this is resonating with someone who's listening right now.

[00:13:59] And they're [00:14:00] like, ah, I'm on that board. And I could see it coming what are one or two tips or pieces of advice or actions or that should be set up in to help to help prevent that kind of.

[00:14:14] Brian Kreeger: It's like I just mentioned. Okay, you as a person and me as a person and most people it's, I've read it somewhere that everybody wants to be fully known at least by one person.

[00:14:28] And that's the ugly stuff. That's the great stuff. That's the in between stuff, but Hey, they also want to still be loved. Anyway, even though all their junk is out on the table, that's everybody. And then when you throw leadership into it there's so many things that they're struggling with. I interviewed, I don't know how many people that say they don't really have that true.

[00:14:53] Friend that true person that they can take these struggles too. So then the leader feels [00:15:00] isolated and the field leader feels lonely because they can't share those deep things that are happening within them. That end up being a fall at some point, if not, If something's not done about it. So just extending friendship just for the general community now on the board, if there's not one or two board members that aren't keeping an eye on the personal life, because think about it.

[00:15:25] How many, what percentage of falls happen in the they have at their core, a personal issue within that? Yep. So

[00:15:33] Scott Maderer: somebody has personal or financial are probably the two biggest triggers that, that financial could also be personal. But that's exactly

[00:15:40] Brian Kreeger: what I was going to say. You're exactly right. Somebody needs to be paying attention to that and if we're not paying attention, it now does that mean diving into somebody's life and everything that leader does has to be run by this particular person?

[00:15:55] That's not what I'm saying, but there should be somebody close enough. And if that board is engaged, [00:16:00] Anyway, in carrying out the mission, they're going to start to see things anyway and have the courage to actually say something to do something. And if I often I've said to my wife, if we can't, there are so many churches around where we live, that if we can't find a place to go to church within 15 minutes, Then we're the problem.

[00:16:22] Okay. So if a leader cannot develop that relationship with somebody on the board or somebody on the board can't develop that relationship, then they are probably the problem. And sometimes that takes a triangular relationship and they can't find anybody on the board that is able to have that kind of relationship.

[00:16:44] Then maybe they need to bring somebody else in a. In order to monitor that cause that's where the issues happen. There's always a personal issue at the core of a leadership. So the number one thing is my gosh pay attention and put things [00:17:00] in there. Put in structures that allow for some kind of monitoring of the personal life of a leader.

[00:17:09] And that starts with hiring. When you hire a leader, They need to know that they're coming into a place where they are cared about as a person. And that board is for them. I've had some board members that do it successfully. They say that leader has got to know that you are.

[00:17:28] The good, the bad, the ugly. Now let me also say, and I know I'm taking a lot of time on this answer that doesn't take away. The fact that a board has to react when something happens. Sure. It's not all just the board is the entity. The board is the one ultimately accountable for that. It's not even the executive.

[00:17:48] And they, they sometimes have to make a move. But they also have to have a close relationship in some fashion. It

[00:17:56] Scott Maderer: sounds like a lot of what you're alluding to is [00:18:00] there's a trust factor and it's on both sides. In that as a leader, I have to trust that my board has my back.

[00:18:07] I can share good stuff. I can share bad stuff. I can share struggle. And they'll help me and they'll love on me and help me move forward. And that may even mean letting me go or in, in some situations or whatever, but that's still a loving that can be done in a loving way.

[00:18:27] And on the other side, the board has to trust that they can engage with the leader in that same sort of trusting way and the leader. Take advantage of it or abuse it or misuse it either. It's gotta be a bit of a trust relationship in both sides.

[00:18:44] Brian Kreeger: Hey, most leaders can be saved.

[00:18:47] Scott Maderer: Sure. Okay. You can do it early

[00:18:49] Brian Kreeger: enough. There's no question. And I'm not even talking with these structures in place. If we see them stumbling, that means they're stumbling. That means they haven't fallen. [00:19:00] W we cannot, we have to have the courage to go to them and talk to them about these issues.

[00:19:05] But we have to be in a position where we can actually see it. Right. Not putting blinders on. Oh, that's yeah. Yeah. Which I think a lot of times. It's funny because you started this with saying that we know that our leader is human as the word that we all say, but we don't. But the irony is, and I've been on boards where a leader has come forward and said I'm struggling with this.

[00:19:27] Scott Maderer: I'm struggling with this. And the board's reaction is that must mean we don't have the right. And it's wait a minute when it's not, that's not actually necessarily true if that makes sense.

[00:19:41] Brian Kreeger: Yeah. Oh, it makes perfect sense. You're exactly right. And it comes down to this thing of, in my book, I talk about the not only is the leader.

[00:19:51] But the board is

[00:19:52] Scott Maderer: the board. So the board has, we don't have any perfect people involved in this process,

[00:19:58] Brian Kreeger: but yet we sometimes [00:20:00] think that the leaders should be pretty darn. And you think about, I think about the stewardship that the board has to exemplify and show in how they handle the leader.

[00:20:14] Scott Maderer: How they handle the organization and its needs. Okay.

[00:20:19] Brian Kreeger: That's right. But think about the impact that a fallen leader has on an

[00:20:23] Scott Maderer: organization.

[00:20:24] Brian Kreeger: Yeah. That's yeah.

[00:20:27] Scott Maderer: And that kind of moving gears a little bit but I think it's related we tend to. Especially I think this is a very Western thing in some ways, but we tend to glorify leaders.

[00:20:43] We tend to love to attract charismatic leaders. The leaders that are they can sell oh, I used to ask them, I was kinda, you know what I mean? That whatever it is, that kind of charismatic leader. And yet, how has. Part of the [00:21:00] problem that we're talking about, that's dangerous to the leader and to the organization as well.

[00:21:05] Brian Kreeger: Honestly, that's exactly what happens. The fact is most people have struggles and I'm talking about the people that sit under these leaders that kind of, I think this is who you're talking about, but they have struggles and they need inspiration. And they need to feel better about themselves.

[00:21:23] And a lot of leaders will feed into. 'cause that's a human nature kind of thing. So they want, people want to feel purpose. They want to feel fulfillment and peace and they want to feel like they're not so bad. So especially in the Christian realm of leadership they people play into that.

[00:21:42] Think about even raising money. Think about the sellout that sometimes that happens to a person who's who has to completely change their identity to raise that money. It's part of the deal, but then you have a loss of their identity eventually. [00:22:00] So anyway, yeah, the leader is put on a pedestal and they do lose their identity because they're trying to conform to what they see.

[00:22:07] This doesn't happen to everybody. So I'm a little afraid I'm painting a pretty broad brush here, but they lose their identity. The CRA in fact, some leaders number one, all leaders start out with good intent. There, there is no question there. And I'll tell you, I'll just use my own story.

[00:22:26] God did this whole thing that doesn't even make sense. Establishing a clinic makes no sense whatsoever. And you

[00:22:32] Scott Maderer: watch your stores to free clinic is a bit of a stretch.

[00:22:35] Brian Kreeger: People laughed at me in the beginning and would pat me on the head and send me out of their office and say, I'm never going to see this guy again but it happens.

[00:22:43] So you watched God perform all these miracles and then you just are cruising along and you're always given God the credit for. You're giving God the credit for all of it. But then sometimes, and I've talked to, I believe me, I interviewed tons of leaders on this [00:23:00] and they say, but there comes a shift where your humanness starts to jump in there and you'll say, you know what?

[00:23:07] I do raise most of the money. I do. My name is on most of the documents. I didn't form the 5 0 1 C3 I did. I did. I did. And all of a sudden, God becomes this. Instead of he's performing all these, he's performed all of this. He's done all of this and there's this shit. Some leaders go through that. All of a sudden I'll just call God when I need him.

[00:23:33] And then they start lists. They start to, or they end up not listening to those people that got them where they are, which is family and their spiritual support system. And all these things start to begin. And it's a human nature. Really things. And it's the amazing leader that can get past that hump and not speed bump everybody along the line.

[00:23:58] That's trying to tell him, Hey [00:24:00] you might be going down the wrong path. And I did that by the way, there were people saying, Hey maybe you need the whole stuff.

[00:24:07] Scott Maderer: Maybe not a good idea, but.

[00:24:09] Brian Kreeger: But it's that shift that takes place of God's doing everything and you acknowledge God doing everything to I'll call God when I meet them, I don't really need them right now.

[00:24:20] Boy that arrogance, that pride that's where you hadn't had fallen.

[00:24:24] Scott Maderer: I think there's an expression about, oh,

[00:24:26] Brian Kreeger: before the fall. Exactly. And that's what happens to these leaders, but that's why somebody has got to be close enough to that leader to help them, especially in their accountability.

[00:24:38] Scott Maderer: And if and again getting back to that idea of personal responsibility too, because as you just said if there's people in that support structure that are calling it out and the leader is not able or willing to listen, then there also has to be structures in place that can take action on

[00:24:56] Brian Kreeger: that too.

[00:24:58] Here's the thing. And I'm [00:25:00] afraid on the heels of what you just said, this might come out wrong, but the fact is. I was telling people I was struggling. Sure. Yeah. They had no idea what to do with it. Sure. They just didn't or they thought and I've had people tell me this, God was doing all these amazing things.

[00:25:17] You seem to have everything under control. Sure. I did. Okay. And that doesn't make it through. No way am I saying that, but I just think we need to start this conversation and this discussion on how do we proactively get out in front of these kinds of things. And then when they say. What are we going to do with it?

[00:25:35] Scott Maderer: One of the things that listeners of the show are used to, but I'll share it with you. Is I talk a lot about how we try to make things into either ORs when most of theology and most of what God does tends to be both ants, where in other words, it is both. The leader and their responsibility and these people around them helping and everything.

[00:25:59] It's [00:26:00] not an either, or it's not a w if this should all be on the leader's back, or this should all be on the organization's back, it has to be both. And that's what I'm hearing you share. Though, I'm quite certain that you've gotten pushback on it, or just works.

[00:26:15] Brian Kreeger: It's funny you say that because I changed the whole introduction of the book.

[00:26:19] After I, I would continue to tell people my message. And in the beginning, like in the first three to four minutes of the conversation they would get this idea that I was blaming everybody, but the leader and that, that is not so I don't know if you, I, yeah, in the introduction it nails it like within the first six or seven paragraphs.

[00:26:40] I'm on that topic because it's true. Yeah.

[00:26:45] Scott Maderer: Yeah. As a leader, we have to be able to ask for help, but then the people around us actually have to listen to that and give help. And the people around us that are telling us, Hey, this might be a problem. As a leader, we have to be open to listening to either half of that breaks [00:27:00] down.

[00:27:00] It doesn't, that's usually when the fall happens,

[00:27:03] Brian Kreeger: but that's a question I ask in the book is. Would I have listened. I'm not sure. I didn't give it that opportunity that never

[00:27:12] Scott Maderer: that and occur. You hope you would have, but if you're honest, you don't know. Cause we didn't play that scenario.

[00:27:18] Didn't play out. So shifting gears before we go into, there's a few questions that I'd like to ask all of my guests. Is there anything else from the book that maybe we haven't touched on that you think is really important for folks to hear or share? As well.

[00:27:34] Brian Kreeger: I think I think I've hit most of it, but I hit human nature in general.

[00:27:39] I hit the fall. Not the leadership fall, but just the fall in the garden and how that plays out we're all dealing with it. It's not just the leaders. It's everybody. But I also go into the community the community has a role because the community is communicating with the board members.

[00:27:58] And I also talk about [00:28:00] how the board they're leaders themselves. And most times they're volunteers. So we got to cut them some slack. So I go into that and the last chapter of the book, which I'll give you a little advanced notice here. There's another book coming and it's about after the fall, what do we do after the fall?

[00:28:17] Because it's inevitably it's going to happen. So I the whole last chapter is the second to the last chapter is is about after the fall. What do we do? Yeah, during my fault, what did people do? Good. And what could they have done better? And what's our responsibility as Christians to a fallen leader.

[00:28:37] Do we look the other way? Do we become legalistic and just keep throne versus Adam, we walk the walk, the journey with them. So there's a lot in there about.

[00:28:48] Scott Maderer: Awesome. So one of the questions I like to ask everybody is my brand is inspired stewardship and that's a filter that I run everything through.

[00:28:57] So for you, Brian, what is [00:29:00] stewardship and what is its impact been on your you and your.

[00:29:02] Brian Kreeger: Actually I think I hit that a little earlier on it should be the direction map where it really starts is I, this is my belief is identify, identifying honestly what you have to.

[00:29:17] And then that's where mine I guess I faked it for a lot of years. But then I got to that point where I really had to identify what do I have to steward and that could be time treasures or anything. Yeah. So how do you, how are you going to manage those things is really, to me what stewardship is all about, and that could be groups.

[00:29:38] Like I said, a board they have a as a body, they have to steward. So stewardship is how are you gonna manage the things that you have been given, but. You got to first identify what are those things? It's one of the things that drew me into this whole thing was a trip that I took my wife on a trip to Kenya and [00:30:00] it was a, it was an anniversary.

[00:30:01] Totally pleasure. And this wasn't a missions thing. I think it was our 15th anniversary. I think we've been well, we've been married 35 years, but I think it was our 15 Sony way. You go to these big, beautiful resorts and you do your thing. But then the minute you step out of the gate, it's object poverty and people just struggling in a big way.

[00:30:20] And we had a couple of experiences along those lines. And like I said, we've been going on missions trips for years, but as I'm flying home, God really planted this. And this is where the clinic store is, where everything started is. He said, he, I truly believe you spoke to me and said, Brian, I could have planted you anywhere.

[00:30:39] I could have planted you anywhere. I could have planted you outside the gates of that resort, but I did now, what are you going to do with that? And to me, that's stewardship now, what are you going to, I'm God, I have given you this, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to help these people?

[00:30:56] What are you going to do? So I, obviously I [00:31:00] ended up doing the best thing I could in my town and went to the people that were struggling with poverty in our city and planted a clinic. And that's really where it all started was God speaking to me and saying, Brian, this is what I've given you. I've blessed you in this way now, what are you gonna do with it?

[00:31:15] Scott Maderer: Awesome. I think that's a good question to ask all of us. So if let's say I could invent a machine and I could grab you from where you are today and pick you up and travel into the far future, maybe a hundred to 150 years, and you were able to look back on your life and look at the impact and the ripples that you've left behind in the world.

[00:31:37] What do you hope that impact has been? I'm going to, I'm going to twist your question a little bit. Okay. I hope that's okay. One of the biggest motivations for me is getting to heaven and having some person walk up to me and say, I'm here because of you. And you know what? I may have never met that person.

[00:31:57] Brian Kreeger: And that person might be a client at [00:32:00] the clinic. That person might be somebody I met going down the street or excuse me, I would have met that person obviously, but somebody that I don't know, but because God used me in the clinic. They are now in heaven. And now I look at this next phase that I'm on with the book and trying to get the message out there to be proactive.

[00:32:20] How many leaders are we going to, are we going to save through these efforts? How many years are we going to see stumbling that we might be able to help them become upright, solidly, upright, and their ministries do not suffer because of that, because let's be real leaders.

[00:32:38] Christian leaders that fall damaged the name of Christ and people then use that as a justification to not come to Christ. Anyway, so that I know I twisted your question just a little bit, but that's exactly how I stay motivated because I just how do you spread your impact as much as possible?

[00:32:58] So people that I don't [00:33:00] know, meeting them in heaven saying I impacted them in some way. That's the answer.

[00:33:04] Scott Maderer: Okay. I think I don't think he twisted it at all. I actually think you answered it just fine. So you mentioned earlier another book coming, but what's coming next for you as you continue on this journey to live out your call and impact the world.

[00:33:17] Brian Kreeger: The goal is to. To speak on this topic, to do what I'm doing today with you, Scott. And to continue to do that, to get people, to think about it just a different way to motivate people, to empower them, to tell leaders that, Hey, what you're experiencing, you don't have to feel isolated. You don't have to feel lonely.

[00:33:36] This is normal. Think about are the enemies separates us from everybody and just make, and that, that becomes that thing that helps us to fall and to stumble then fall. So it's the keep talking and saying, look, it's okay. It's even okay. Board member for you to have that. It's okay for you person sitting in the parish hall.

[00:33:59] It's [00:34:00] okay for you. These things are okay. Don't feel isolated. So anyway, I wanna, I want to work with boards and I want to work with leaders and I want to work with constituents she's constituencies, whatever that might be. It might be a mission board. It might be whatever. I just want leaders to feel like it's okay to be human.

[00:34:19] And I want other people to. It's okay for our leader to be hope human in more than just an abstract way. And how are we going to see a leader falling and not, how are we going to see them fall, but then what are we going to do about it? So as much as I can do to make that happen, that's what I wanted because you know what, Scott, I can hardly find anybody that's talking.

[00:34:42] A proactive approach to prevent the fall of Christian, nonprofit leaders. They there's plenty of people out there talking about falling leaders. Let's try to get out in front of it.

[00:34:52] Scott Maderer: So you can find out more about Brian at his website. It's at [00:35:00] www.briankrieger.com or follow him over on Facebook as preventing the fall.

[00:35:04] He's also on LinkedIn as Brian Krieger. Of course I'll have links to all of this over in the show notes as well. Brian, is there anything else that you'd like to share with the listener?

[00:35:13] Brian Kreeger: Hey, be courageous and be proactive. Get out and fight.

[00:35:20] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast, as a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode. Please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.

[00:35:48] All one word iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get [00:36:00] every episode as it comes out in your. Until next time, invest your time, your talent and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.