SNS 115: Saturday Night Special – Interview with Emily Sander author of Hacking Executive Leadership

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Welcome to tonight's Saturday night, special episode, 115.

[00:00:05] Emily Sander: Emily sander. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to grow in your leadership is key.

[00:00:19] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this, the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott.

[00:00:26] a lot of times I see managers and leaders only look for what their employees or team members are doing wrong. So that's how they see management. It's okay, I'm supposed to find the mistakes and then criticize them and then make sure they don't do it ever again, yes, there is a time and place for that, but equally, if not more importantly, it looks for what they're doing, but

[00:00:50] Scott Maderer: welcome, and thank you for joining us on the inspired stewardship podcast.

[00:00:55] If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you [00:01:00] must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired search of podcast. We'll learn to invest in yourself. Invest in. And develop your influence so that you can impact the world.

[00:01:16] And tonight, Saturday night special, I asked Emily sander to share with you how she specializes in getting leaders to the next level. As a coach. I also ask Emily to share what the failure loop is and why it matters. And Emily also shares with you why attitude and aptitude are related to being a great.

[00:01:37] And lots more. Now, one area that a lot of folks need some help with is around the area of productivity. Getting not just more things done, but actually getting the right things done can be really. I've got a course called productivity for your passion. That's designed to help [00:02:00] you do this and then to hold you accountable and walk with you so that you can tailor productivity, not just to be getting more done, but actually getting the right things done.

[00:02:12] What's more, we take the approach of looking at your personality and how you actually look at things in the world and tailor the productivity system to your personnel. Because the truth is a lot of the systems that are out there are written really well for somebody with a particular personality type.

[00:02:30] But if you have a different approach to things, they just don't work, but there's tools and techniques and approaches that you can take that will work for anyone. And we help you do that and productivity for your passion. Check it out over@inspiredstewardship.com slash law. Emily has spent more than 15 years in the business world.

[00:02:51] But when she realized that her favorite role was mentoring leaders, she decided to pursue coaching as a C-suite executive and ICF [00:03:00] certified coach. She combines her experience and proven insights with a keen ability to understand each client's unique personality and situation. She is the Arthur of the book hacking executive leadership.

[00:03:13] Welcome to the show.

[00:03:14] Emily Sander: I Scott, thanks for me. Whoops. There we go right away.

[00:03:18] Thanks Scott. Good to be here.

[00:03:20] Scott Maderer: So Emily, you've had a lot of different roles, a lot of different responsibilities over the years. We just talked a little bit in the intro about how you've worked in corporate you're leading teams, especially teams in these kinds of rapid environments, rapid growth environments.

[00:03:36] And. You're now working also as a coach, helping other leaders get to the next level. How has that corporate experience led you to and helped you do this coaching in a way that's effective and authentic?

[00:03:51] Emily Sander: Yeah, so I wouldn't be the coach that I am today. Without that experience. I think going through, the first time [00:04:00] manager and leaving your first team meeting and going into your first board meeting, having your first hire and fire, all those things, and then, rising through the ranks and.

[00:04:09] Different leaders and working under different leaders and working in different companies. And in team environments just gives you this eclectic, group of experiences that you can draw from. So with my clients, I feel like I can relate to whatever they're going through, whether that's a challenge or an obstacle that overcoming or a great opportunity or something that they've done to celebrate.

[00:04:31] So I can help navigate where I say, Hey, I can draw on my experience. Actually going through it and being in that environment for 15 years, but also draw on my coaching training and that discipline itself. So those things together, I think have really helped me become an effective coach for leaders all over the world.

[00:04:50] Scott Maderer: You've seen a lot of different leaders. What are some of the examples of really good leadership that you've seen?

[00:04:56] Emily Sander: I think, during this last year 2020, [00:05:00] so COVID hit and no one could have predicted that, we talk about being adaptable and, creative problem solving with leadership.

[00:05:06] And no one could have predicted that. And I think a lot of the strong leaders I saw were actually really vulnerable and would stand up in front of their all staff meeting and say, I don't want. Everyone is worried about their jobs and everyone's worried about this or that. What are, what is the market going to do?

[00:05:24] What does that mean for the company? What does that mean for me? And sometimes they didn't know. And so they were honest about that and they said, Hey, here are the factors we're looking at. And here's how we're going to be approaching this decision making process. But at this moment I'm not gonna lie to you.

[00:05:40] I don't know. And I'll check in with you, next Tuesday at 3:00 PM or whatever. And that was actually a big sign of strength. And I talked to a lot of leaders who are going through some version of that.

[00:05:50] Scott Maderer: Yeah. Actually I'm in a leadership position with some work that I do. And everyone's asking me, is this going to happen?

[00:05:58] Oh, boy, if you can answer [00:06:00] that question, I will pay you a lot of money if you can't give me the answer to that question, because I don't know. So let's flip it on its head. What are some examples of I, I don't want to use the word bad, but let's just say less than stellar leadership perhaps

[00:06:13] Emily Sander: that you've seen.

[00:06:14] It's the opposite. It was never a great solution to pretty much anything. My, my dad was a lifeguard when he was younger and he said, Emily, the people who would get in trouble would be right by the edge of the pool and they would panic and then they would go down. And any situation,

[00:06:28] Scott Maderer: water.

[00:06:30] Emily Sander: Exactly. Yeah. And your arms length away from the edge. So just grab whole, but people panicking and those types of situations in business situations is somewhat of a natural reaction, but being self-aware enough and in self-control enough and having a mechanisms to help you navigate through that I think are good.

[00:06:47] So I see people I can tell when. Someone is out of control, meaning they're talking really fast and they're reacting to everything and they're making these emotional responses and they've got to bring themselves [00:07:00] down a bit. 2020 was full of the good examples and full of the quote unquote bad examples.

[00:07:06] Scott Maderer: Sure. So one of the things you talk about in hacking executive leadership is this idea of the failure loop. Can you share a little bit about, first off, what is that? What do you mean by that? And then why that matters to leave?

[00:07:22] Emily Sander: Yeah, absolutely. So in the book you have a little graph, but it's a series of individual loops that go up into the right.

[00:07:30] So collectively they all go up into the right, and this is a way to think about failure. So it's a framework to think about failure. A lot of people, you say the word failure and they have an automatic negative connotation. Oh my gosh, I don't want to fail. I don't want to be a failure, which makes.

[00:07:46] But if you think about it in this framework, you can actually transform failure into progress. So in the individual loop at the bottom of an individual loop, you're actually going the opposite direction. You want to go so down the left. [00:08:00] And so that is a point of, Ooh, I didn't do as well as I wanted to there, I wasn't as great in that presentation.

[00:08:06] I wasn't as great in that interaction with that person as I would have liked to be, but I'm going to pull the learning. And take the lesson and say okay, let me acknowledge this. And let me find what I need to do better and then apply it next time. And you just propelled yourself up to the next loop.

[00:08:24] So back up into the right, and I think a lot of people get really self critical and really down on themselves when they have a quote unquote failure event and they just stop and they go, oh, I sit on the floor, throw my hands up to find myself a failure. And if they would just keep going. And use that as a learning experience, then they get better.

[00:08:46] So I think that's important because as leaders in the business world, we are presented with a lot of tough decisions over and over again. And as you move up, the decisions don't get easier. They get harder. [00:09:00] So when you're the CEO of a company, that problem, that issue has probably gone through.

[00:09:05] 10, 12 different people who are all smart and capable and it lands on your desk because it's a complex difficult one. And so you need to be able to be confident in your decision making and be able to move forward.

[00:09:18] Scott Maderer: So what the installs people out at the bottom of that loop.

[00:09:22] Emily Sander: A lot of things.

[00:09:23] So one is, it feels crappy at the bottom of the loop. So I think we've all felt that duck punch, oh my gosh, I just embarrassed myself. Oh my gosh, how could I be so stupid? And it just feels crappy. And so okay. I don't even want to go close to that again. So I'm just going to do nothing and hold still, or stop trying the, what other people think of me or.

[00:09:47] What other people could be thinking of me, maybe they're not, but in our own heads, everyone's paying attention to us and pointing the finger that holds people back a lot. And I'm guilty of that as well. So it's very common and it's a real true thing, but [00:10:00] those those two things, the feeling of it, and also the perception of what other people are thinking about.

[00:10:06] It holds a lot of people.

[00:10:08] Scott Maderer: One of the other concepts that you talk about in the book is this idea of aptitude and attitude. And for first off, those words sounds similar, but, can you talk a little bit about what they are? What's the difference. And again, why does that kind of thought process, where does that come into leadership?

[00:10:24] Emily Sander: So aptitude and attitude, the two big. That you want to use for recruiting a new team member, and you can also use it to assess your existing team. So aptitude are the hard skills that someone would need to do well in the role. So if you're in finance, you might have to have a CPA. If you're a technologist, you have to code a certain language.

[00:10:45] You have to have those hard skills on the attitudes. Those are sometimes referred to as soft skills, but I don't really like that because they're equally, if not more important than the hard skills. But they're, how do you collaborate with others? Are you a [00:11:00] team player? Are you a positive solution oriented person to work with?

[00:11:04] A lot of people, say, Hey, Emily's great at her job, but I claimed every time I have to do a project and I've heard it described as the brilliant jerk or the friendly and competent. So ideally you'd want to have a team member who is high at both categories, high of those aptitude and attitude.

[00:11:22] They're really good at what they do and they're awesome to work with. And so those are your top performers. You want to make sure that. No, who they are and recognize them and reward them. And then on the flip side, if you've got someone. In a deficit in both categories. So they can't do the technical piece of the job.

[00:11:41] And they're also a pain in the butt to work with. Those are your under-performers and they need equal attention for training or support or encouragement. And if they can't get there, then maybe they're best suited for another role, but that's a framework and rubric you can use for recruiting and hiring and also team building this.[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Yeah. And I,

[00:12:00] Scott Maderer: and I think in some ways, those two of the obvious categories, in other words, if they're high in both, I think most people have no problem seeing them and going, okay, top performer reward, if they're low in both, okay. Either coach them up or coach them out, they've either got to figure out a way to move up or maybe they're in the wrong role, or maybe even in the wrong career, wrong company or whatever.

[00:12:21] It's the other two buckets that I think we struggle with, they're great at their job, but their attitudes state. In terms of hard skills, they can do everything you ask them to do. They knock it out of the park, but they leave bodies in their wake, that kind of person or the conversely, the other one, everybody loves them.

[00:12:38] They're everyone's favorite person, but every time they do anything, somebody has to double check it because they screw it up. So how do as a leader, how do you deal with those other two?

[00:12:49] Emily Sander: Yeah. So if you can train something, then train it. So if they just don't have the knowledge to do it, so maybe someone is fresh out of college as their first job.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Have academically done some of the technical pieces, but I've never done it in practice. So they're struggling on the aptitude piece, but you go, oh, okay. I know why that is. I just need to, give them a little bit more attention. Maybe give them some more training courses. You can plus that site up.

[00:13:16] Real good. If it's something that's. So teachable. So you can't, sometimes you can't teach someone to have a good attitude. You can bring it to their attention and say, Hey, here's what I observed in the team meeting. You gave a sarcastic answer to Scott when he asked you a question or, Hey, we have some deadlines that we need to hit and you always miss them.

[00:13:36] You can offer those observations and see oh I didn't know. That was important to be nice to start the meeting. Oh, I did. They're going, wasn't a real thing. There might be bringing them, bringing it to their attention and also resetting expectations to make sure they know it. And that's what you can do.

[00:13:52] And if they come up higher and say, oh, okay I'll meet that expectation. Great. You're good. If they still don't then sometimes it is hard to, [00:14:00] make someone be positive and make someone have a good day. Yeah.

[00:14:04] Scott Maderer: Yeah. I, again, I've been in the position of hiring and firing. I've had those conversations and in many ways I used to tell people I honestly look more at attitude when hiring, because again, I can teach you how to fill out a spreadsheet.

[00:14:18] I can't teach you to have a positive attitude nearly as easy.

[00:14:22] Emily Sander: Absolutely.

[00:14:24] Scott Maderer: Before, we've only touched on the book a little bit with the Saturday night special tonight, we won't be able to go into everything, but before we move on to a couple of questions that I try to ask every guest, is there anything else you'd like to share from the book?

[00:14:38] That's a nugget that's really important.

[00:14:40] Emily Sander: Yeah, there's a couple, I think one of the, back to your good and bad leadership examples, a lot of times I see managers and leaders. Only look for what their employees or team members are doing wrong. So that's how they see management. It's okay, I'm supposed to find the mistakes and then criticize [00:15:00] them and then make sure they don't do it ever again.

[00:15:02] It's okay. So yes, there is a type of. For that. But equally, if not more importantly, it's look for what they're doing. Look for what they bring to the table. Each one of your team members has a strength and a skill set, and it might be different than your. Which is actually a good thing.

[00:15:19] So if you have someone is oh my goodness, like you're good with numbers in a spreadsheet. And that's nails on a chalkboard to me, that's a good compliment to my skill set and that's a good compliment to the team. So most of those and. A great leader also sees the potential in someone.

[00:15:35] So they go, oh Scott's great at his job, but you know what? I think he could run the department one day. I think he has leadership chops in that fashion. And maybe Scott doesn't even know that himself. Maybe that's so far away. That's out of, it's not even conceivable, but if you plant that seed and say, Hey, I think that, let me bring you in, on, on my team meeting, just so you can see how I run it or see how I prep for it.

[00:15:58] That can open up a whole bunches [00:16:00] of doors for a person. So yes, look for mistakes and make sure things are done right. But also look for the good things and tell people about them. When you say.

[00:16:09] Scott Maderer: So one of the questions that I like to ask, all of my guests is this one of course my brand is inspired stewardship. I look at things through that lens of stewardship. So for you, what does the word stewardship mean? And what has its impact been on your life?

[00:16:24] Emily Sander: Yeah, I think stewardship is taking care of what's been given to you or what's been entrusted to you. And that can have, macro level connotations where it's like, Hey, sometimes I do zoom out and think about we're all on this earth right now. So we've all been given this earth in this life.

[00:16:43] And you think about all the people that have come before us and all the people that will hopefully come after us for centuries and centuries. And we're here now. Especially when I'm traveling, I'm sitting on a plane and I'm like like just. Me seeing you here, we're already in [00:17:00] something together.

[00:17:00] We're already a cohort of some kind. So I sometimes get in all of that and then narrowing that down further. It's you know who are the people that are put in my path and who are the people that are put in my life? Those relationships I'm given. So I take care of those, whether that's a long-term relationship, maybe it's a spouse or a lifelong friend, or it could be a very brief one-off interaction.

[00:17:25] The cashier at a grocery store or your Uber driver. Am I taking care of that relationship and interaction that's been given to me? I think the way that's impacted me is my outlook to life in general and also my day-to-day approach. So I wake up and say, okay, I'm looking forward to. The open doors and opportunities that are going to be given to me.

[00:17:46] And then when I see one, I try to make the most of it. So I keep keep an eye out for it. But if you pay attention to that, then you'll see more of them on the receiving end. I've certainly had people take the time and energy [00:18:00] to call out my strengths. When I didn't even know that I had them early, early on in my career, I had some great mentors here.

[00:18:07] Definitely impacted. My overall trajectory would not have, would not be where I am today without them. And they took the time, months and sometimes years to cultivate my leadership and forge it and, sand the rough edges and get me to where I need to be because they saw that potential in me.

[00:18:24] When I didn't see in myself, I was like, they're like, they're going to run a team one day. You can run a company one day and I did the. Double-take around my shoulder looking around do you mean me? No, that can't be possible. But yeah, so I think stewardship is both ways. It's my outlook to life and my approach to what I look for in a day.

[00:18:42] And then also I've been very blessed and I'm very grateful to have been on the receiving end of some of those positive relationships.

[00:18:49] Scott Maderer: So Emily now I'll move to what everyone tells me is the easiest question that I ask. I say jokingly, if I could invent a machine [00:19:00] and crab you from today and pick you up and move you into the far future, maybe a hundred to 150 years, and you were able to magically look back on your life and see that the impact that you've had, what do you hope the impact is that you've left behind on the world?

[00:19:15] Like I said, the easy question. Yeah,

[00:19:18] Emily Sander: I would want to see, I would want to see my ripple effect. My chemo to ripple effect. Hopefully, literally, you don't know what your smile can do for someone you're passing on the street. Maybe that changed their whole day and changed their whole trajectory of something they were doing.

[00:19:31] I know people have said, when you told me this, when I was having a really rough time, that meant so much and what that did. So just I'm hoping that I would have a positive impact. On people and lasting and meaningful, positive impact. And it would be very interesting if the time machine to show you the ripple effects for all the people that you touched.

[00:19:52] And sometimes didn't even know that, but you had an impact

[00:19:54] Scott Maderer: on yeah that's one of the things, I was a school teacher for 16 years and that's one [00:20:00] of the things that as a school teacher, you end up thinking about is the kid that you. Yeah. In sixth grade and I've got several that are now doctors or medical researchers are doing other things.

[00:20:10] And it's oh, I had a little tiny piece of creating that person. Not by any means the full person, but still I was one step on that journey.

[00:20:19] Emily Sander: So funny, I had a first grade teacher and I was super shy, painfully shy when I was really young. And she literally said, You know that you don't have to be shy anymore, if you don't want to know.

[00:20:30] I was like, oh, I don't like, oh, okay. So I guess I will, became a little more outgoing. But just her saying that I remember just Tiffany aha moment oh, okay. If that's possible, I'll go do that. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Scott Maderer: In first grade. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's interesting that you remember that. You know how, however many, we don't have to say, but

[00:20:53] a lot of

[00:20:54] Emily Sander: hairstyles,

[00:20:55] Scott Maderer: Emily is not in sixth grade. It's been a while. So we'll just leave it at that. [00:21:00] So what's coming next for you. As you move through this journey of doing the coaching, doing the work, you're doing the book being out, what's coming next. As you continue to live out your.

[00:21:10] Emily Sander: Yeah. So I'm wrapping up a business venture I have now I'm a chief of staff for a small digital marketing agency, and then I'm hoping to be able to flip full-time and be coaching. So I've been doing that awhile. Like my day jobs, but hopefully flipping into coaching is something that I love.

[00:21:27] It's something that I think I'm good at. I'm saying that humbly, that's where I feel. I make my highest contribution. Writing the book was a collection of all my experiences in the corporate world and my experiences coaching, and it was a way to reach more people. So I really hope that helps.

[00:21:42] That helps a lot of people in that. I'm going to do the coaching thing and then also just stay open. So I think if I stay open and I'll use your tag line from the show to optimize my time, talent and treasures. If I give myself that prompt each day, it's going to lead me in a good path.

[00:21:59] Open to [00:22:00] what's next.

[00:22:00] Scott Maderer: You can find out more about emilySanders@nextlevel.coach, our follow her on LinkedIn as Emily sander. If I'm going to start over again, cause I realized I just added an S to your name at the beginning. I'm sure I'm not.

[00:22:18] You can find out more about Emily sander@nextlevel.coach, our follow her on LinkedIn as Emily sander. I'll have links to all of that over in the show notes as well. Emily, is there anything else you'd like to share with the list?

[00:22:31] Emily Sander: No, I think you hit it. We touched on a few pieces from the book, the failure loop and aptitude and attitude.

[00:22:38] If you want more of those types of tips and tricks, definitely pick up packing executive leadership. It's on Amazon. It's on audible, wherever books are sold. If you're interested in coaching or you have a friend or colleague who would like a business coach, then you can go to my website and we can connect there.

[00:22:55] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast, [00:23:00] as a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode. Please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.

[00:23:22] All one word iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get every episode as it comes out. Until next time, invest your time, your talent and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.