00:00:00 Thanks for joining us on episode 676 of the inspired stewardship podcast. Hi, I'm Ella Hawkins, author of cracking the leadership code. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to lead well is key. And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this,
00:00:31 the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott Mader. Cause you know, it's and I think it's so interesting. I mean, look, you know, we're recording this in August of 2020, still in the midst of this pandemic. And just to look at how many people said, no, we have to, we can never have our people work from home.
00:00:57 Well, they're working from home. And so this has been this amazing opportunity for people to step back and go, Hmm. How many sacred cows have we just been keeping sacred for sacred sake. Welcome. And thank you for joining us on the inspired stewardship podcasts. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time,
00:01:20 your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired stewardship podcast. We'll learn to invest in yourself, invest in others and develop your influence so that you can impact the world. In today's interview with the law. We talk with you about leadership by starting with leading yourself. We share how there are many bad habits of leadership, but they are ones you can change.
00:01:51 And we also share some of Alan's top resources on investing in yourself and lots more. One reason I like to bring you great interviews. Like the one you're going to hear today is because of the power in learning from others. Another great way to learn from others is through reading books. But if you're like most people today, you find it hard to find the time to sit down and read.
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00:02:44 The same way you're listening to this podcast. Ellen Hudkins is a consultant trainer, coach and speaker around the complex topic of leadership. His recent book cracking the leadership code three secrets to building strong leaders was released earlier this year, over his 20 plus year career. A LAN has led over 2000 groups in 25 countries, including groups at Walmart, Pfizer city group,
00:03:11 GE state farm IBM GM and Microsoft Alon has designed and facilitated seminars on many leadership topics, including team building, conflict management, communication, peak performance, innovation engagement, and change. Alon also serves on the faculty of Duke corporate education and is published in many of the most prominent business and leadership sources, including fast company Forbes, inc. And more Welcome to the show.
00:03:40 Ally, thanks so much, Scott. I'm really excited to be here with you today. It is great to see you. Uh, and you know, when we talk about this, you know, you've released this great book on, on leadership and we were talking a little bit before we started the recording about how for leaders it's so often we feel like,
00:04:02 you know, our job is to get other people to change. Our job is to make sure that everybody else is doing what they're supposed to do, whatever that is and whatever industry you're in. And yet I think you would agree that at the end of the day, the person that we really can change is ourselves. So would you talk a little bit about why,
00:04:20 you know, quote unquote old school leaders or your typical leaders might struggle, especially in today's world and how that change, how phrasing that differently or looking at that differently can help with your employees and their competence in what they do. Sure. Yeah. You know, this whole idea that, you know, it's easier, we all want somebody else to change because the fact is at a certain level of students,
00:04:46 we're a bit lazy, right. You know, it's like it's a bit lazy and it actually I'll tell you a story that I think encapsulates this difference between old school and new school leadership. I think, you know, we think of old schools that command and control versus this new school being much more facilitative, helping drawing people up. And this story actually has nothing to do with the business world,
00:05:03 has to do with parenting, namely my own parenting. So I, and I'll tell you up front, I am not the hero in this story and I'm sure many parents do relate to this. So I have two kids. My son, Alex is now 16 and my daughter Miranda's 13. And I remember my son, Alex, must've been about three years old and anyone who had a kid that age at some point will remember those days when you're trying to get them dressed,
00:05:25 to get out the door, to get somewhere. And it is, you know, and so we were rushing and having to get out and we had to, it was raining here. I live in new England and, you know, getting rain boots on and raincoats. And it was like, and I was getting frustrated, like, come on. Like,
00:05:40 you know, and I found myself getting triggered and testing and upset at this little three year old. Who's trying his best. But in my mind, like we've got to go you're, you're making us late, making us late Alex. And I remember that I, and I got a little testy and my voice raised and I, he looked me and he just started crying and it was like,
00:05:59 that's the last thing in the world I wanted to do. But yet I was the one who created all that. And I remember calling my wife married, debriefing that later on, and I was explaining the whole thing and I felt terrible about that. And, you know, and she's great because she said, so let me ask you on that. What were you doing?
00:06:14 15 minutes earlier to get Alex ready so that he wouldn't be in that situation? And I went, yeah, because of course I was doing my own thing, whatever, and was like, Oh, we've got to go. I didn't factor that in. And so I bring up that story because I think as leaders, we sort of expect everyone else to be operating on our time schedules and doing,
00:06:35 as we would like, if we could clone ourselves, we would, but we don't. And we can't. And so the real challenge for us is to step back and realize I can't change them. I can't make them do anything as soon as I try to motivate someone or force something on them, I'm back to the old school of command and control.
00:06:56 So instead we have to get smart and think of ourselves as these architects, where we design this environment where people want to do their best. And so I think that's, that's one of the big issues here that we're Right and, and wanting to do their best. I mean, so I, I'm now a coach, you know, that's my profession today.
00:07:16 And, but you know, my mother's joke is what are you talking about? Your coach now, you were a coach when you were eight dude. You know, you've always had that mindset. And when I was in corporate leadership still kind of had that mindset of being a coach as opposed to a command and control leader. Um, but I know,
00:07:32 but you know, from working in the organization that was often kind of looked at as, you know, that's not going to be effective. You can't really get people to do what they need to do air quotes around what they need to do, um, by, by coaching and by facilitating. So what does that actually look like in the real world?
00:07:51 Uh, if, if you're in a leadership position, whether it's in church, whether it's parenting, um, cause that's definitely still a leadership position. Uh, I have a 17 year old. Um, we occasionally have that same fight now about getting dressed. So that's interesting, you know, uh, but how does that actually play itself out in the real world,
00:08:09 how it plays out Mindset, there's a shift and I'll call it the difference between pushing and pulling or if you prefer telling and asking. So I think at its core, we have to realize if we want to be these inspired steward, facilitative leaders, we have to recognize the inherent humanity and worth in the other person and treat them as a person as opposed to a,
00:08:35 get it done thing, tech check box on our list, you know, object, you know, cause we think about it. So many of us have inherited these behaviors from the industrial age where employees were literally thought of as a spare pair of hands parts in the machine. I mean, this is where the phrase human resources comes from like that you're just a resource to be used,
00:08:55 spit out and replaced. So if we really want to shift what that looks like practically, it means trusting that other people actually want to do a good job and retreating them with a level of respect and compassion and asking them things instead of foisting it on them. Now, look, there's a time and a place to definitely command and control. Like if this building is on fire right now,
00:09:18 Scott, so Scott, like there's a lot of exits here. Let's have a meeting and talk about what I want to take. I mean, it's like, let's go and run like hell outright. There's a time and a place for that. Unfortunately, too many people resort to that type of behavior in situations that don't call for it. And that's one of the traps that leaders fall into.
00:09:37 Right? So it's that idea. Um, you know, w figuring out the things that even with like standard operating procedures and things I used to talk about, are we looking at things as a result or is this really something where no, everybody has to do this exactly the same way, because at the end of the day, if we don't, it doesn't work,
00:09:57 you know, cause there, again, if somebody's installing the brakes in my car, I kind of want them to do it with the standard procedure, but at the same time, there's other parts of that job where it's like, if they put on, put it on in that order versus that order, who cares then to the day, it's really,
00:10:15 they're still getting to the same point. So that part of that kind of stepping back and figuring out those sorts of differences within the, within the company. Yeah. That's huge. I mean, what, you're, what you're touching on your Scott, really, again, it goes back to this industrial age mindset. I know I did a lot of research this for my book and you know,
00:10:31 the father of the field of management, it's a guy named Frederick Winslow Taylor, who was by training a mechanical engineer. And he's known as having the person who created this idea of the one best way, cause it was all about efficiency. And I think, you know, that may have worked to an extent in the early 20th century when his book came out in 1911 and kind of industrial management had a Taytay at the beginning of the 20th century,
00:10:57 but that's not the world we live in. We live in a knowledge work economy where even people who work in manufacturing nowadays are doing more, more creative problem solving. Cause they're probably overseeing a robot, is doing a lot of our automated stuff. And so what that means is there's this shift, this shift from getting out of that industrial age, do it exactly this way or else.
00:11:21 And if we keep falling into that industrial age mindset trap, we're going to favor efficiency over effectiveness because you know, it's, and I think it's so interesting. I mean, if we look, you know, we're recording this in August of 2020, still in the midst of this pandemic and just to look at how many people said, no, we have to,
00:11:40 we can never have our people work from home. Well, they're working from home. And so this has been this amazing opportunity for people to step back and go, Hmm, how many sacred cows have we just been keeping sacred for sacred sake and how many have we killed along the way? So it's recognizing how things need to change. And a big part of that change is the change in mindset from getting out of the old command and control way of thinking.
00:12:06 Because if you're a 21st century leader holding onto an early 20th century mindset, you are destined to struggle and ultimately fail. So kind of talking about today, um, you know, obviously like you just said, people are working from home, which also means to some degree you're having to lead yourself if nothing else. Um, because it is different working at home versus working in an office where you've got 300 employees around you and your boss is right down the hall and so on and so forth.
00:12:37 And in the book you talk about as a leader, how we have to kind of step back and examine, recognize and break some of these bad habits that we're talking about, the things that we've kind of inherited because that's the way leadership was always done. So that's how the that's has to be how we do it. Uh, what'd you talk about what are some of those habits that it's most important for people to really think about and then how do we actually start breaking down and getting out of some of those old bad habits?
00:13:05 Yeah. Great question, Scott. So I think one of the biggest bad habits that we've inherited from the previous generation is to put task first and foremost. So we think about the mechanical model it's engineering and it's mathematical driven. And in fact, Many, many people in the business world are way more Comfortable with numbers than they are with people because numbers are consistent.
00:13:27 Like, can you show up? You show up to meet him, you know, because let's face it, it's got like eight is always eight. Like it's always one more than seven and one less than nine. When you show up to a meeting, you know, you never worry about eight going well, you know, I'm really not in the mood for like,
00:13:39 you know, whereas people are messy, you know, we're filled with this emotional internal life and they're not as predictable. So a lot of us are way more comfortable with that. And it's so interesting. Cause if you go to any typical, let's say monthly business meeting, that's an ongoing, what's the first thing that people talk about. Let's look at last month's numbers.
00:13:58 It's always about the numbers, the numbers, and understand first. And what's so interesting is that we spend time on the numbers. We usually run out of time before we get into, how are people doing? What's what are people up to? What are they doing? That's moving things forward. And the challenge is when we focus on the numbers, the numbers are just a lagging indicator of the work that the people are doing.
00:14:19 People are doing certain things that create numbers like gross profit or revenue or quality or whatever you name your, you name it. That's that's, you know, zero defect, whatever that might be. That's all based on behaviors by people. So we have to be able to step back. So that was one of the biggest things is for us, is to get out of that.
00:14:41 And also I think, you know, I forget who said it, but someone wants to launch a smart person. Long time said, you know, that power corrupts and absolute corrupts. Absolutely. And one of the challenges is as soon as you put someone into that formal leadership role, they have the title. I am now the senior manager or the supervisor that people start to get drunk in their own power a bit.
00:15:05 And it's unfortunate. In fact, there's been some great studies that show that when people are primed to feel more powerful, their level of empathy for other people goes down. I mean, it's shocking, but maybe not surprising because you're allowed to. Yeah, because we talk about our leaders being out of touch with the common folk. So one of the big other traps is as soon as we step into that formal leadership role,
00:15:29 we think I've got the power. I get to tell people what to do. You know, there's a famous story about Alfred Hitchcock directing a movie in 1965 called torn curtain. And the leading actor in the movie was Paul Newman. And at the time Newman was already a bonafide Hollywood star. He'd been nominated for the Academy or twice. And Newman was a method actor.
00:15:48 So he really wanted to get into his character and Hitchcock hated that stuff. And he thought it was very much an old school command and control director. And in fact, he said after it should be like putting to be molded in the director's hands. So he saw actors as sort of this necessary evil in the whole process, or they're making this movie and Newman comes over to Hitchcock and it has some questions about his character and Hitchcock doesn't want to talk about it.
00:16:08 He says, look, everything you need to know, Paul is in the script, but this is Paul Newman. You know, and he's pretty stubborn and pretty direct. He says, no, but really what? What's my motivation. And so Hitchcock famously turns to Newman. He says, your motivation, mr. Newman is your salary. That's it. And too many of us has fallen into that.
00:16:29 It's shut up and just do it already. Right? Cause look, your paycheck, your paycheck is go right. No, bother me. When in fact people are trying to understand that your money is a motivator, but it's not the motivator. And for many people, it's not the driving motivator. So realizing what is the motivator and are you curious enough to take the time,
00:16:49 to figure out what that is and help people to achieve that and satisfy that need so that they can move in the direction to perform at their best. And actually that creates the win win. And for those folks that are, that are motivated by task and that's kind of how they see the world. And there are people that are wired that way guilty by the way.
00:17:09 But what I always used to tell people is like for me, when I was the leadership I actually created and turned, being more people oriented into a task. And what I mean by that is I literally had a pop up on my calendar that came up on Wednesday afternoon that said go visit with, and it had names of people that reported to me,
00:17:29 I'd walk down the hall and, you know, have a little conversation with people about what was going on in their world and how their kid did in their baseball game and all, and I made a deliberate, you know, it was intentional. It wasn't accidental. Um, and it was, it was funny because in a way I was turning, being more people oriented,
00:17:49 you know, into a job, into a task, into a, a thing that I just had to check off the list. But ironically, because of that, well not actually, ironically, it actually makes perfect sense. Yeah. Those folks love working for me. Uh, you know, they felt more connected to, I love how you said that Scott,
00:18:07 because of what you're demonstrating with your, and thank you for modeling that in it admitting that is the fact that it doesn't, this isn't about it being a natural thing a lot. I'm just not a people person. You don't have to be a people person. So I always like divide again, simplification here. I divide people into camps. Some people are more people,
00:18:25 people, some people are more process people. Clearly you said you're a process person. Turned the people side of things into a process. So you made it work for you and ultimately than it worked for other people. So that's a great example. It should be no excuse. Like I'm just not good at this. Oh, turn it into a task,
00:18:43 turn it into a process because the fact is people at the end of the day, don't care why you do it as long as you do it, it's a necessary thing. Right. And be totally honest, Scott, I am the I'm in the same camp as you. I'm definitely leaning much more towards process side of things than people side, but I've been doing it so long people think,
00:19:01 Oh, you're such a people person like fake it. It's it's, it's genuine. It's just not a gifting of mine. Whereas my wife, Oh my gosh. You know, she's just people walk away and be like, Mary's amazing. Can I hang out with her was like, because that's her skipping people don't feel that way about me. That's the same.
00:19:20 But it's the same thing. And again, by the way, the people that were, they knew that their name was on a list and that I came over on Wednesday and they knew when their Wednesday was and all of that know, in other words, I didn't hide any of this. You know, it was, we, we talked about it again,
00:19:36 like you said, they didn't really care that they just wanted to have a visit once a week and feel like they had a chance to talk about things that weren't all about. Did you get XYZ done today? You know, but we're also about what's going on in their life. What's going on in my life, you know, and that kind of thing,
00:19:54 because that was important to them. Now there were other employees where that wasn't as important to them and that's okay too, but you know, you, you can figure it out and you can turn it into a, a, a task as well. So yeah, I always use that example, uh, for, for my out of my own history,
00:20:10 but it, I still do that today. Right. Uh, just in different ways. Um, I'm not in, I'm not in that particular position, but that that's still important to me today. Um, so I think as, as leaders, we've talked a couple of times about how, you know, we get back to the numbers, uh,
00:20:28 and the same thing happens. Now when I'm working with people, I do financial coaching with them. And a lot of times people come in and, and even people coming to coaching it's about the numbers. You know, how can I get this, the math to work rather than looking at it from the point of view of no, the numbers are telling the result of behavior,
00:20:49 whether that's your individual behavior, whether that's the group behavior within a, a larger company, uh it's it's the result, not the input. So would you talk a little bit about how emotional intelligence, which some people are already rolling their eyes because everybody's always like, ah, woo. And that doesn't really, what does that mean and how looking at humans as humans can really make a leader more effective.
00:21:17 Yeah. I love the fact that you said that, you know, a lot of people are rolling their eyes and going, we have people like, Oh my gosh, are we talking about this stuff? It's so soft and fuzzy. And again, with our human predilection for wanting to measure everything, cause it is harder to measure, you know, like it's hard,
00:21:31 it's hard for me to say to somebody, you know what, you're being like a 98% jerk today. Oh, I don't know, actually. Anyway, sorry. But the interesting thing about this Scott is, is the fact that as we, and, and we all know this, when we see it, right, it's like emotions are super contagious.
00:21:52 If you don't believe me, just think about the last time you had to go and renew your driver's license in person for the department of motor vehicles. It's like, you just feel that like here I am and the emotions are contagious and the emotions of leaders are the most contagious and there's been all the great thing is there's been all this great social science research that now shows that,
00:22:10 you know what, the number one thing that makes people more engaged and likely to stay in a company is feeling cared for by their immediate supervisor, more than anything else by a long shot. And so when you start looking at the numbers on like the hard case for the soft skills, you realize that actually learning how to, first of all, identify your own emotions as a leader,
00:22:33 then obviously regulating them. How do you have some kind of self regulation and notice what's going on? Because how people feel profoundly influences how they perform. And again, don't take my word for this. I think that listeners just think about when you are performing at your best, how do you feel? What are some words with emotional quality words that would describe you,
00:22:56 performing whatever it is in your life you would like to perform at your best. I've asked this question hundreds of times, and the answers are always consistent. People say things like energized, vibrant, alive, focused, enthusiastic, happy, right? So that's pretty obvious. What's less obvious is the fact that anytime you're not feeling that category of feelings that we just named you can't perform at your best.
00:23:21 So your suboptimal as a performer, you're also suboptimal as a leader because you're bringing everyone else down with you because, and the way neuroscience would show us about the brain is that when you are all going to a friend of mine uses this great analogy, kind of, of a snow globe, you know, when you shake a snow globe and all the snow comes up,
00:23:38 it's like your snow globe head with, everything's like shaking and busy. And you know, let's know it's kind of going on when you're kind of up and triggered like snow globe head, you can't function as well because you're all, Oh, what about this? Or you just can't focus. You can't think straight. So there's so many repercussions of the fact is that when we're not able to be focused and calm and working from that more optimal performance zone.
00:24:01 So emotional intelligence starts with the self awareness as leaders or as anyone for that matter, we have to start with that. And then we have to realize what's the impact that I'm having on other people. So it's that relationship over furnace. And that takes the ability to step out of your own thinking and get into that higher level or what they call metacognition.
00:24:23 That's thinking about your thinking process, because something you touched on earlier, Scott is, you know, we're so focused on the numbers, but what we have to learn, how to do is whatever we want to do well is how can we fall in love with the process of doing it? You know, if you listen, if you listen to interviews,
00:24:38 you know, I listened to, I listened to a whole bunch of earlier interviews with Kobe Bryant after he was, you know, obviously trying to be killed in a helicopter accident. You know, there's amazing interviews, many of them, you just talked about how he looked. He would go to the gym earlier than anybody else. And he would do the same dribbling drills that a fifth grading,
00:24:58 a fifth grader would be doing. And he would do them for an hour every day. And people say, don't you get tired of this? I said, no. The reason I do this is because this is what makes me the greatest player in the world because no one else will keep doing this. So look, you don't have to be an NBA player,
00:25:10 but whatever it is you do, what is the process that is going to achieve greatness? And how can you fall in love with that process? And you know, whether you're an individual contributor and, or a leader leaders need to create the structure so people can be in that process more easily, more frequently and more consistently, Right? One of the things that I used to use for my analogy,
00:25:34 whenever I was talking about being in a leadership role was, you know, my job was to make your day Easy. Yeah. If I wasn't doing that, then I'm not doing my job, you know? Um, which it sounds silly, but at the end of the day, no, that's actually, my job as a leader was to make your job easy because at the end of the day,
00:25:54 if I'm making your job hard, how am I leading? I'm putting up barriers instead of making it smooth. Yeah. And in fact, it's funny, you say easy, because if you think about the word we talked earlier about this idea of facilitative leadership, well, the word facilitate comes from the same root as the French word Fest seal, which means to make things easier,
00:26:12 to make it easy. It's all about making things easier because let's face it as leaders, when our people succeed, we succeed, right. When they get great results, we get great results. So that's the way it should be. It should be this win-win relationship, right At the, at the end of the day, if you could, as a leader,
00:26:29 try to do everything yourself and succeed that way. Uh, don't recommend it. And in the long run, that's not very efficient or effective usually, but I think I've seen people fall into that trap. So we talk about a leader kind of developing themselves and investing in themselves, breaking some of these bad habits and stepping back. Can you share a top,
00:26:52 you know, couple of resources that maybe people could use to really dig in and start changing the way that they lead? Sure. Well, one of the most useful things in terms of changing the way you lead would be just kind of like my golden rule of, of if you want to be a better leader is get feedback from other people on how you really show up and not,
00:27:13 don't just talk to your mom and don't just talk to your puppy, but we're going to love you unconditionally until you're wonderful. You actually want to hear from people who are going to be honest with you. You say, look, I'm wanting to become better. I want to become a better leader. What are some things that I'm doing well? And what are some things that I could be doing differently to be even better.
00:27:30 And then when they give you the feedback, the only response is, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And that's it. And then you can take it. You can throw it in the garbage later on, if you think it's off base, but hold on to it for awhile, because you'd be surprised. You know, when the ninth person says,
00:27:43 Hey, Atlanta, you know, you tend to come across little. Bruskin too quick with people I had to start. So that's a true story, by the way, I am says that to me, it's like, Hmm, nine against one, maybe they're right. Cause they know that at the beginning, I want to be defensive and instead of,
00:27:57 and shrug it off and say, let's just them. So getting feedback is such a huge, huge piece. So I would say that's number one, another huge resource that we all have if we make time. And it's funny because I don't have the time is can you build in some opportunities for self reflection? Now, whether you want to call that journaling,
00:28:16 what do you want to call it? Sitting and looking at your calendar or planning, but like do some after action reviews, you know, the military term, right? So the sense of like, so you have a meeting afterwards, what went, well, what could be done differently? You know, it's amazing. You know, you talk about people,
00:28:32 you know, we used to have this big bias towards people who had lots of experience at work. Now this person has 20 years experience. Well, I think there are people who actually are very wise from 20 years of experience, but then there are the people who have one year of experience 20 times, right? Because they haven't learned. And so if you want to fast track your own growth and development,
00:28:51 look for those opportunities to reflect and put yourself out into situations where you're going to be stretched and grow because that's where the learning happens. That's where the progress happens. If you're just doing the same and same old, same old, you're not going to get there. So those are my top two it's feedback. And then some kind of personal reflection practice on your own,
00:29:11 right? And those are both forms of feedback. One's just internal and one's external. So they're both valuable from that same point of view. One of the things that, and again, listeners will laugh as they hear this because I preach all the time. The idea of if you are not reflecting on your learning and, and you know, constantly do that plan,
00:29:32 execute, reflect, revise, plan, execute, reflect, revise. If you just simply lived your life. That way. If, if we all did all the time, it'd be what we could do. Now, That being said, you don't always, you can't always do that. You're not always perfect at it. We screw it up too.
00:29:48 Um, all of us do, I don't care how, how good you are. You, you mess it up, but the more often you can do that, the better it, it gets whatever it is. You know, it literally could be anything in that, in that Blake, whether that's communicating with your spouse, whether that's leading your company,
00:30:05 whether that's, you know, recording a record, I don't care at all. It all fills in. You can follow a Len on LinkedIn. He's Elaine Huskins. It's spelled a L a I N H U N K I N S. Or you can find him at his website with the same spelling, that.com you can find out more about the book@crackingtheleadershipcode.com.
00:30:35 Of course I'll have links to all of that over in the show notes as well. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener? I, first of all, I want to thank you Scott, for the great conversation today. And I would say that, I mean, the key to moving forward with any of this stuff is just a little bit of action every day.
00:30:55 It's not about trying to do it all. It's not about setting a new year's resolution. I'm going to do assault. It's just, we talked about earlier about the power of removing the friction and creating some habits. So creating habits that focus on development, learning, and growth and doing those things consistently over time, you know, oftentimes leaders, we talk about words like inspiring charismatic.
00:31:18 I would take consistency over any of those other words, any day of the week. So be consistent and take action. And you will start moving in directions. You might not get there in a month or even in six months, but it's amazing. You do that over the course of a year, two years, five years. It's amazing how much things will change for you.
00:31:52 Thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast, as a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively, listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode, please, please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes, right? All one word iTunes rate.
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