Episode 1525: Interview with Alvin Sanders Author of "Uncommon Church"

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Thanks for joining us on episode 1,525 of the Inspired Stewardship

[00:00:05] Alvin Sanders: Podcast. I'm Alvin Sanders. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent, and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to recognize that poverty is something we all need to address is key, and one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this The Inspired Stewardship Podcast with my friend Scott Maderer.

[00:00:38] People did come to Christ with a proclamation first. Those days are over. There must be a demonstration of the gospel first. Then the proclamation comes. That's the unique opportunity that the city space invites people in. We have resources, we have buildings, we have congregate.

[00:00:58] Scott Maderer: Welcome and thank you for joining [00:01:00] us on the Inspired Stewardship Podcast.

[00:01:03] If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent, and your treasures for your true calling. In the Inspired Stewardship Podcast, you will learn to invest in yourself, invest in others, and develop your influence so that you can impact the world.

[00:01:31] In today's podcast episode I interview Alvin Sanders. I ask Alvin about his work with World Impact and the Urban Church. I also ask Alvin about his new book, uncommon Church, and Alvin also shares how we have a call as Christians to do more than just be aware of poverty and justice issues. I have a great book that's been out for a while now called Inspired Living.

[00:01:53] Assemble the Puzzle of Your Calling by Mastering your Time, your Talent, and your Treasures. You can find [00:02:00] out more about that book over an inspired living book.com. It'll take you to a page where there's information and you can sign up to get some mailings about it, as well as purchase a copy there. I'd love to see you.

[00:02:14] Get a copy and share with me how it impacted your world. Alvin has spent the last 30 years investing in those who invest in the poor. For the last six years, he has served as president and CEO of world impact of 50. Year old organization that equips ministry leaders to plant and sustain healthy churches and communities experiencing poverty.

[00:02:35] He's the author of Uncommon Church and works to ensure every community has a healthy church that improves the lives of everyone in the neighborhood. Welcome to the show, Al. Glad to be here, Scott. Absolutely. I talked a little bit about some of the work you've done with World Impact as a pastor.

[00:02:53] Working with the urban church and ministry leaders, as well as your book Unco, the Uncommon Church. [00:03:00] And would you share a little bit more about kind of your journey and what's caused you to go. Be drawn to so many different places and types of ministry and put this message out in the world.

[00:03:13] Alvin Sanders: Yeah. So my journey basically I grew up a church kid. I don't have a whole lot of wild stories. I never had, like this wild period in my life, always grew up a church kid. My mom. It's,

[00:03:24] Scott Maderer: It's never too late by the way.

[00:03:27] Alvin Sanders: My mom traditional African American, Baptist church woman and I'm also a military brat for my dad was 30 years in the Air Force.

[00:03:34] So wherever we were in the world, mom made sure we were in church. Always believed in Jesus, always loved Jesus. But the ripe old age of 21, I was called to ministry. On the campus of Bowling Green State University in Ohio we ran a ministry where we targeted the the African American students on campus and tried to lead them to the Lord and found that we were really good at it.

[00:03:57] And so we began to have Sunday services. [00:04:00] Now, if you go back. That was probably church planting, if you wanted to put a label on it. But we didn't know anything like that back in the day. So we were minister, you just, you

[00:04:08] Scott Maderer: were just talking to people, administering to people.

[00:04:11] Alvin Sanders: We were just trying to reach the campus for the Lord.

[00:04:13] It was through that experience that I felt God called me into ministry and I transferred from Bowling Green State to Cincinnati Bible College in 1992. And I guess they say the rest is history. So I've been in ministry pretty much. And all the time in urban ministry for the most part. Worked at Cincinnati City Gospel Mission.

[00:04:33] Worked on the west side of Chicago, a circle. Urban Ministries, moved back to Cincinnati, planted River of Life Church in urban Cincinnati till 2008. Then I worked for the Evangelical Free Church of America, and then came the World Impact in 2015. Been Senior VI as a senior Vice president and been CEO.

[00:04:52] Since 2017.

[00:04:54] Scott Maderer: When you think about the work that you were drawn to in urban ministry and thinking back about what you did in college [00:05:00] what's some of the things that are unique or different about working in that sort of, the, those ministry fields as opposed to what I guess people may be thinking about when they think about church or ministry?

[00:05:14] Alvin Sanders: I think the big thing that I always, the common thread that God always had in my life was, like I said, being a military brat, I was grew up basically what's called a third culture kid. Third culture is you don't grow up in the culture that your parents were born in, so to speak. But you, because of all of the cultural background that you've naturally got through your life, you can see things from all perspectives.

[00:05:38] So for instance, I spent. Kindergarten in Okinawa, Japan, and they used to tell me that I could speak fluent Japanese. That's all gone now, but I wish I still had that. But what that does is I've always found myself being able to thrive in multi-ethnic spaces, drive in social, in, in spaces where different social classes are around and [00:06:00] I can get things naturally that.

[00:06:03] Most people don't because it's a natural part of my life experience. So I found myself always to be in a bridge building type of space, Scott?

[00:06:11] Scott Maderer: So talk a little bit more about, your faith journey. You mentioned growing up in the church and kind of not having any wild times and that sort of thing, but how do you think your particular faith journey and the way you've seen faith in ministry has influenced.

[00:06:27] The work you've done and the choices you've made and the way you live out your life.

[00:06:31] Alvin Sanders: Yeah, there was a definite pivot point in my life. At age 21 I was studying physical therapy at Bowling Green State University. And then there was this conference in 1991 called Impact 91. And. It was sponsored by, I think it's, they're called the Impact Movement now, but at the time, I think they were connected to Campus Crusade for Christ.

[00:06:53] But it was a gathering of, I wanna say about a thousand Christian college students in Atlanta, Georgia. [00:07:00] And during this gathering, we had a outreach. And that outreach was, we went and we would deliver, we deliver food in the projects of Atlanta, and we went to this small urban church and this pastor.

[00:07:14] Was there and he was telling us about the neighborhood. He was telling us about the community. He was telling about how we fit into what they were naturally doing. So we go, I went with this young lady, I have no idea what her name was, but we went and we met one of the ladies and we were delivering the food to.

[00:07:29] And we were supposed to go there and we were supposed to do the canned presentation of, the, I think it's what's the four spiritual laws? I can't remember what Campus Crusade does. But anyways, we were supposed to do that, and we got there and it was about 30 seconds in. It was very clear, this woman's a believer.

[00:07:42] She knew more scripture than us. So it was like, all right, let's how can we pray for you? And so she said, my son is on drugs, he's on crack. I really haven't seen him in a while. It'd be awesome if we could pray for him. So we said, okay. So we bowed our heads and we [00:08:00] began to pray for him around our kitchen table and a book of acts Scott, we open our eyes and their son's sitting there at the counter and he's eating from the box of food that we brought.

[00:08:13] And I swear I didn't hear him come in. I don't think anybody heard him come in, but he was there. So we're excited. We're like, praise God, and we go back to the church and we tell the testimony and everybody's happy, but this is not a Disney movie. So it didn't have a happy ending because as we were driving out and pulling out on the bus, I look out at the, I look out the window and I see that young man on the street corner buying more crack.

[00:08:43] And my heart just sank and broke. And from that point on, I knew that I needed to make a tangible difference in urban neighborhoods and a tangible difference in the lives and the hearts of the people that lived there. [00:09:00] Like the pastor at that church that, that sent us out was doing. And so from that point on, I did a pretty dramatic step.

[00:09:06] I actually dropped outta Bowling Green State University, much to the chagrin of my father and transferred to Cincinnati Bible College and that on and from that trajectory, I have always chased my passion and desire to make disciples in the urban context.

[00:09:19] Scott Maderer: What do you think about that moment?

[00:09:21] I obviously, I will point out that you have no idea and neither do I of, what. What ripples went out from that one contact and that young man's life may have been dramatically changed 10 years later. And yeah, you were just the moment of the seed plant and, you weren't there to watch the harvest.

[00:09:38] Which I think is actually one of the most difficult things about ministry work or nursing or, being a a teacher, you often don't see the harvest from the seeds you plant, you just. You're just there to plant seeds. When you think about that and how that moment impacted what you saw in the community and what those needs were, how did that influence how you [00:10:00] look at the work of the church when dealing with, poverty, when dealing with drug abuse, when dealing with real community challenges that go deeper?

[00:10:10] Then maybe just that box of food could solve.

[00:10:13] Alvin Sanders: Yes. So the local church is the hope of the world, and that's what I believe and that's what World Impact believes. And that box of food that was given, that's actually the typical Christian response to folk who are in poverty. They give charity.

[00:10:27] Charity is fine and charity is nice, but charity is not life changing. But more importantly, it's not what scripture charges us to do. The Christian responsibility towards those who are experiencing poverty is long-term care. We see it throughout the entirety of scripture. One common story is in Acts chapter six, the pointing of the first deacons.

[00:10:47] That was a case of a church wrestling with how do we take long-term care of the widows? Within our church and the widows of, within their church, were typically [00:11:00] in poverty. So we have a Christian responsibility that, frankly, I don't think a lot of Christians really understand that we are charged to give long-term care towards those who are in poverty.

[00:11:12] And it's not us exclusively as an institution. People, Christians have a typical, have a, have a. Have a propensity to say, oh, it's US or the government, or it's us, or No, it's both. And there's only one entity that is definitely charged to do something to provide long-term care for those who are in poverty.

[00:11:32] And that's the church, but it's not at the expense of other institutions. So it's our Christian responsibility towards those who are in poverty. That's what I am a champion of. Then the concept of redemptive poverty work. And that's why World Impact exists. We exist for, people can have personal development in the area of what their responsibility is toward those who are in poverty.

[00:11:58] Scott Maderer: I, I've seen it [00:12:00] myself you being in ministry and church work and around that for quite a while both growing up and then later in life where and it's a. It's a subtle thing because it's almost a mindset issue as opposed to an action issue. Yes. In other words, like that box of food, how are you using that box of food? Why are you giving that, what's the interaction and the philosophy and the thought and the energy behind it, as well as the prayer and the gospel and all of these other verses. So again, it's not about did they get a box of food, it's about all that other stuff,

[00:12:35] Alvin Sanders: yes. And,

[00:12:36] Scott Maderer: and yet churches struggle with that. Why do you think that's so hard for Christians to understand?

[00:12:42] Alvin Sanders: It is something I personally believe that in, in terms of churches in capitalistic societies, we'd like to believe that people are in poverty because of something that they did.

[00:12:51] And so you blame 'em. You're in poverty because you deserve, it's almost like you deserve to be in poverty because you didn't do this or you didn't do that. [00:13:00] And certainly there are cases where people are in poverty, kinda like the prodigal son story. Sure. They did something wrong.

[00:13:08] They did something morally wrong, they blew all the money or whatever. And so they find themselves in poverty. But the number one reason why people are in poverty, 'cause they were born there. It is no deeper than that. Okay. They lost the social class lottery, so to speak. They were born into the context of poverty.

[00:13:26] They didn't do anything to put themselves there.

[00:13:28] Scott Maderer: They grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks,

[00:13:32] Alvin Sanders: because most people don't switch social classes. We, we celebrate those who do. No, we sort

[00:13:38] Scott Maderer: of have an American myth that anyone can and Exactly.

[00:13:42] Alvin Sanders: No. Yeah, and there's the myth of meritocracy and all kinds of other stuff we can get into, but essentially most people, they're born into their social class. Whatever they were born into, that's where they end up at the funeral. So what we, our mindset, you talked about mindset before.

[00:13:59] [00:14:00] The mindset has to change. That these are still people made in God's image. These are still people in whom God can use for his kingdom and for his glory, and there's nothing inherently wrong with people who live in poverty. They're human beings just like me. They're not, and you. Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:19] So that's the redemptive way to look at these folk. It's not. They're not people to be exploited, they're not just projects that we are to work on for our own calling and our own good. They are real people created by God in his image. I. They deserve to be treated with the dignity in which Jesus Christ demonstrated while he was here on earth, how he treated them.

[00:14:44] Right.

[00:14:45] Scott Maderer: And by the way, that also includes that person that, like you said earlier, yes. There's somebody out there that made some choices or did some poor things. Exactly right. It still includes them too, by the way. Yeah.

[00:14:56] Alvin Sanders: Because we all, okay, we might, you might be a [00:15:00] millionaire, but you still suffer from some form of poverty.

[00:15:02] Was talking to a colleague who had a friend who was she was very upset because she came from poverty, but she married into money and her mother needed help and her husband would. So it's no, we're not gonna give her any money to help her out. Because this is our money.

[00:15:28] That's the way he saw it. This is our money. And you're, it's pretty cold hearted, man. It's your mom needs help. We're not gonna help her. We're not even gonna give her charity. Because he doesn't feel any responsibility to help his fellow person. And this is someone who, he's married into, right?

[00:15:44] Married into the family and I'm, 'cause the mindset is like you didn't get yours deserve what you get. And that's a terrible, unethical mindset to have towards those who are in poverty.

[00:15:55] Scott Maderer: And it's a misunderstanding of. The gospel message of a, again, [00:16:00] even expanding out from poverty, I think a lot of it comes down to the root of how do we view quote the other, and you could exactly.

[00:16:07] You could do that. Poverty, you could do that racially, you could do that. Yeah. Yeah. Because all sorts of ways.

[00:16:12] Alvin Sanders: He's obviously okay, he has a lot of money, but he obviously has some sort of moral poverty. Some sort of spiritual poverty if he can't view another human being in desperate need and he has more than enough and he's just refusing to help him just 'cause he can.

[00:16:28] Scott Maderer: And yeah, and it deeply, it's a root rooted in that, a sin of pride, a sin of, like you said, not seeing. And I think it's challenging for us to do it, but to see quote the other, and again, the other there. Fill that blank in with anyone that you immediately thought of, uhhuh there, politically, economically, socially, racially gender.

[00:16:51] I don't care. I think we all have a knee jerk. I. Group that maybe triggers us in some way, and yet we're still called to see [00:17:00] God in them and love them too. And that's really hard to get through and get past for a lot of us as human. And that shows up again, like you said, that is a form of poverty of our mindset and our faith and our belief that showing up in what we're doing regardless of our wealth status or our economic status.

[00:17:17] Alvin Sanders: Exactly.

[00:17:18] Scott Maderer: So when you think about urban churches, the setting that you worked in so much, what what is it about the urban environment that kind of drew you to this idea of redemptive poverty and, what's the intersection between those thought processes for you?

[00:17:34] Alvin Sanders: In the urban context the city is a place where reality hits the good and the bad of life because of the diversity of the people that you see in the social classes that that you that, that interact on a daily basis. In the suburbs you can go and you can hide in your own enclave, so to speak, but.

[00:17:53] You'd be hard pressed to be in any city, at least, particularly in the United States, where you don't come across the [00:18:00] vestiges of poverty. And the results of it. So the city is where most of those who are experiencing poverty live, for instance, our world impact, we focus on 11 mega regions where 90% of the country lives.

[00:18:15] It, if if you ever seen the political. Map, you see all this red. And then you see these deep blue places, right? The deep blue places are typically where metropolis are. A lot of urban centers.

[00:18:26] Scott Maderer: Yeah.

[00:18:26] Alvin Sanders: Where urban centers are, I think I saw, I might have this wrong, but I think I saw something where like Los Angeles has, the city of Los Angeles, the metropolis of Los Angeles, like has more people in it than four or five states or something crazy, oh,

[00:18:41] Scott Maderer: prob I, that would not actually surprise. Yeah. Yeah. And New York is probably up there too. Yeah.

[00:18:46] Alvin Sanders: Yeah. So the city is the place where really it's the center of society, I tell people, if the city sneezes the suburbs and the countryside catches a cold.

[00:18:57] Because it has influence, you cannot get [00:19:00] away from the influence of the city. So if you really wanna make an impact on society, you have to influence the city somehow. Okay. And churches, one of the things that that we, we had, we did a study with Barna group. We partnered with them and did a study called Inside the Urban Church.

[00:19:17] And one of the awesome things we found out in that research is that city people and city institutions, they actually want the church at the table. I know people think that they don't, but they do. And they want the church at the table because they've realized that the church is a asset for the common good of the city and of the neighborhood.

[00:19:38] And if you intersect with other institutional partners and you intersect with the, if you were putting the most effective evangelism program, if you're a church in the city, your most effective evangelism program is if you help people deal with this scourge of loneliness. Now you don't help 'em deal with it by inviting the Bible study.

[00:19:59] They don't wanna come to your [00:20:00] Bible study and they don't wanna come to your worship service. At least not right off. But they wanna meet you in what's called a third space. Third space is a term that's been popularized decades ago by a sociologist by the name of Ray Oldenberg, I believe that was his name.

[00:20:14] And he talks about it's not work and it's not home. It's the space in between. Starbucks was famous because they utilized that as their business model. They tried to create a third space. Third space,

[00:20:24] Scott Maderer: yeah. And while you're

[00:20:25] Alvin Sanders: in the third space, by the way, here's some coffee, right? So what if the church reimagined itself?

[00:20:31] One if, one if here's the thing that that a vision that I have, Scott, what if, think about your typical city block in the United States. You can go to any city block and you're gonna see tons of churches. What if churches reimagine their buildings as third spaces somehow, and we're gonna invite that neighborhood into that third space.

[00:20:51] And as they come into the third space, we engage them in a way, right? In a way that's [00:21:00] gonna cause them to want to inquire and hear more about who Jesus is. And then perhaps maybe they will come to a Bible study or come to worship service. Or hear a proclamation of the gospel. I'm old enough to remember that we thought people came to Christ or not we thought people did come to Christ with a proclamation first.

[00:21:22] Those days are over. There must be a demonstration of the gospel first, then the proclamation comes. That's the unique opportunity that the city space invites people in. We have resources, we have buildings, we have congregates who have they have assets, they have skill sets to be able to make the neighborhood a better place.

[00:21:42] That's where you will meet people and earn the right to proclaim the gospel to them.

[00:21:48] Scott Maderer: In a way almost they'll invite you to and what I mean by that is I've seen situations where, because ministry is being done well, and [00:22:00] I'm just gonna put it that way, people begin to ask you why are you doing this?

[00:22:04] Exactly. What is it that motivates you? What is your, you're different somehow. Yes. What's making you different and. It's an invitation to share your testimony and the gospel and you know that this is why I do what I do, Jesus is the reason for me. And it's a different proclamation even 'cause it's less top down and more invitational and relational.

[00:22:27] Yes. Yeah. So talk a little bit about your book Uncommon Church. What what prompted you to write it and what's the message that you're hoping it, it gets out for folks. I.

[00:22:37] Alvin Sanders: I'm in my, what I call my uncle season of, I just turned 55 and I find that there are a lot of 20, 30 somethings who come to me and just want, life advice or mentoring or just at the other.

[00:22:51] And what I found is in the group that's in the generations behind me, there's sort of a struggle of trying to take their [00:23:00] social justice bent. And could and marry it to theology. It was the exact opposite when I was their age. When I was their age, everybody was brains on a stick, I call it.

[00:23:11] We were all pretty theologically astute, but when it came to like, how do you apply the theology, the practical theology, there were struggle. It's particularly in urban spaces of how to do it. I think that things flip now. It's all the rage to be active. To be trying to make the neighborhood a better place.

[00:23:31] Community service, community engagement, all those types of terms. But when I would talk to these younger folk and say why are you doing this? They weren't given theological reasons. They were given social and cultural reasons, which are, which is fine, but if you say that you're a Christian, you need to know the richness of the scriptures and what it has to say about these things.

[00:23:52] So that's the main reason why I wrote that. 'cause the first half of the book provides the theological [00:24:00] explanation of why we do what we do in terms of engaging social issues and such, and things of that nature. The importance of the local church cannot be left out of it and its role in our lives as the people of God.

[00:24:12] And then the second half of the book is about the social and cultural aspects and how to practically live out the theology that I laid out in the first half.

[00:24:19] Scott Maderer: Do you feel like it was something that you were called to write, so to speak, or, where, what was the source of the, not the contents of the book, but the thought to put it out into the world?

[00:24:32] Alvin Sanders: Like I was saying earlier I wanted to invest in people. Because I was noticing a trend that people are losing the theological foundation of why we do what we do. Why are we ministering to towards those in poverty? Why are we trying to make the city a better place? So I wanted to invest in them in a way.

[00:24:54] Obviously I can't be there personally, but people can read a book and they can understand [00:25:00] the why of what they're doing, what they're doing. So that was really the driving force. I, it wasn't a audible call of God or anything like that. It was like, you know what? I've been around a couple of months at Sundays.

[00:25:09] I have some wisdom. I want to, I wanna put it in this book and help some people understand the why of why they're doing what they're doing.

[00:25:15] Scott Maderer: I wanna give you a moment, too, to speak to that church out there that, maybe somebody's hearing this and they're part of the leadership in their church and they want to do things, they want to help people, they wanna make a difference but maybe they're struggling with.

[00:25:28] Doing it well or feeling like they're, they're hearing this and they're going, I'm not sure if we're doing it right. What are some of the things that they need to think about or look at or maybe, pivot or change on that would help them reach their community especially those around them that are in poverty or, and challenged in those ways in a better way.

[00:25:50] Alvin Sanders: Yeah. So first they have to. I, if they're holding their head and they're going, oh man, am I doing this right? Okay. That's awesome because now you're starting to gain the right mindset, which is [00:26:00] that embrace your responsibility as a Christian to have to, for long-term care of those who are in poverty to move beyond charity.

[00:26:08] One of, one of my heroes of the faith, John Perkins. From Christian Community Development Association. He started that, that group 40 something odd years ago. He wrote a book a long time ago called Beyond Charity. And that's like the mindset we have to have, okay, we need to go beyond charity.

[00:26:24] If I'm a leader of a church or I'm a pastor, or I'm just a member of a church, it is my responsibility to go beyond charity and then they need to wrestle with and figure out, 'cause it's different from everyone. What does that look like for me? If I'm an individual congregant, it may look like. I'm gonna go to the local elementary school that's in a community experiencing poverty, and I'm gonna tutor a kid for an hour a week September through May.

[00:26:47] Or it might be like, I'm gonna go to the local Boys and Girls Club and I'm gonna get involved in coaching kids. But whatever it is that you need to do to displace yourself to use your time, town and treasures to try to help people who [00:27:00] live in a community experiencing poverty, what is it that you can do?

[00:27:03] Because you need to be doing something. That's the big that people don't understand. When you think at Matthew 25, Jesus people don't it makes people feel cringey when I say this, but when we are judged by Jesus, and this is not Alvin Sanders, Jesus himself said, I am going to ask you to paraphrase race.

[00:27:26] Where were you in the lives? In the hearts of those who are in poverty? We're all gonna be asked that question. So if I were you, I'd be doing something about it. 'cause I wouldn't have a good answer. Jesus. Part of when Jesus when John the Baptist, not Jesus, when John the Baptist was getting ready to get killed and he was like getting cold feet about this whole thing.

[00:27:49] And he sent his disciples to ask Jesus, are you really the one? Are you really the one. One of the marks that Jesus, in his answer sent back to John the Baptist, had to do [00:28:00] with, he did things with folk in poverty to make their lives better. This is a big deal. I don't know if most Christians really understand.

[00:28:08] This is a huge deal. Okay. So the mindset change must happen because it's a mark of who we are as believers and followers of Jesus Christ. So wrestle with it, but then once you get done wrestling with it, do something. It actually almost doesn't matter what you do. There's my book, there's a gazillion people have written books of how to engage those who in poverty in a dignified way.

[00:28:32] So just pick a book, right? Mine who? John Perkins, whoever. Just go find somebody. Educate yourself, but more importantly, do something. Do something, act with urgency.

[00:28:46] Scott Maderer: And again, I think part of it too is you may even already be doing something and it may even be a good something. But it's what needs to change behind it is, again, not just the action that you're doing it, but the [00:29:00] way that you're implement.

[00:29:01] Alvin Sanders: The why. The why, and the way difference, the way

[00:29:03] Scott Maderer: why and the way that's what makes a difference. What makes a difference.

[00:29:06] Alvin Sanders: Yes. Yeah.

[00:29:06] Scott Maderer: I have seen food pantries that are actually wonderful ministries, and I've seen food pan pantries that are done just as charity, as an example. Yeah.

[00:29:15] You're all right. Our clothing drives or all sorts of different. Things that, that churches do and they feel different. You show up in one and it's this feels like caring and kindness and ministry, and you show up in another and it's eh, this doesn't really feel that good.

[00:29:29] Yeah. You're making

[00:29:30] Alvin Sanders: things

[00:29:30] Scott Maderer: worse.

[00:29:31] Alvin Sanders: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:32] Scott Maderer: So I've got a few questions that I want to ask or I like to ask all of my guests, but before I go there, is there anything else about the work you do with World Impact and Urban Ministry or your book that you'd like to share?

[00:29:47] Alvin Sanders: Yeah I think that, the biggest thing I want people to share is that, we've given some challenges along this way during our discussion and dialogue, but the number one thing I want people to understand is that when you go on this journey of [00:30:00] ministering to people who are experiencing poverty, you're actually gonna be blessed more than the people that you're ministering to.

[00:30:05] You're gonna get a lot more of it than they do because you're gonna grow spiritually and you're gonna be challenged to, to engage things that you never thought that you had to engage. And you're gonna grow in what it means to be empathetic towards other folk. And so the biggest thing I think people need to understand is you are getting something from them.

[00:30:27] It is not a one-way exchange. It is not me. I'm just making their lives better in a physical, tangible way. It's no, you're gonna get a whole lot out of it too if you do it the right way.

[00:30:40] Scott Maderer: The not showing up as the savior, but showing up as the friend. Exactly

[00:30:45] Alvin Sanders: right.

[00:30:46] Scott Maderer: Yeah. And again, that, that can be hard to do.

[00:30:50] But it's well worth it when it, when you do it. So yes, I agree with that a hundred percent. So my brand is inspired stewardship, and I run things through [00:31:00] that lens of stewardship, and yet I've discovered even within the Christian community, that's one of those words that can have a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people and a lot of different settings.

[00:31:08] So when you hear the word steward stewardship, what does that word mean to you and what does its impact had on your life?

[00:31:16] Alvin Sanders: It means that, God has deputized us as believers to be able to manage his world. The resources of his world, we are to manage him in a way that is honoring to him.

[00:31:33] Scott Maderer: So this is my favorite question that I like to ask everybody. Imagine for a moment that I invented this magic machine. And with this machine, I was able to transport you into the future, maybe 150, maybe 250 years. And through the power of this machine, you were able to look back and see your entire life.

[00:31:50] And see all of the ripples, all of the connections, all of the impacts you've left behind. What impact do you hope you've left in the world?

[00:31:59] Alvin Sanders: I hope that [00:32:00] because people have met me and because people have been part of the institutions that I have led throughout my life, that number one, they've somehow become closer to God.

[00:32:11] You talked about how way back when I was given my testimony about as a college student meeting that young man. And I said it ended what? It ended badly. But she's no, Alvin, maybe it didn't.

[00:32:22] Scott Maderer: Yeah, you don't know. You dunno.

[00:32:24] Alvin Sanders: So I, I would hope that because of how I've used my time, talent, and treasure here on this earth, that people's lives are better individually.

[00:32:32] That, that they're come closer to God. I did my role, I played my role in helping them become closer to God, whether it was leading them to God or I just ca was a catalyst in helping get something started. I'm a big believer that institutions shape lives and hearts and minds of society and people that the world is a better place because I was a pastor at River of Life Church because I ministered at the Evangelical Free Church denomination because I was CEO of World Impact.

[00:32:59] [00:33:00] That it matter. It made a difference. That's really it, really. I just want to wanna leave a legacy that I made a difference in the lives and hearts of people in the things that I did. There's, I don't know exactly where it's at. It's in one of the Samuels, but I remember that there's a there's something that's said about David and Samuel.

[00:33:19] There was a time in David's life that's, that it says in Samuel. And everything he did, he had great success because the Lord was with him. And I'm and really that's the, I if I had anything on my tombstone, that's what I would like to have. Everything he did, he had great success because the Lord was with him.

[00:33:38] Not because of me, not because of my wit or whatever it may be, but because the Lord was with me. Because if the Lord was with me when I did it, it will leave a mark. It will leave an impact.

[00:33:51] Scott Maderer: Absolutely. So what's coming next? What's on the roadmap for you as you continue on this journey?

[00:33:57] Alvin Sanders: One of the big things that I'm doing is I'm working on another [00:34:00] book called Around this concept that we talked about of redemptive poverty work.

[00:34:04] I, I've done a lot of blog posts. I've done a lot of workshops. There's even a little booklet that I wrote, but now it's time to expand it into a larger manuscript. So I'm working hard on that. Continuing to lead World Impact world Impact has, world Impact is really positioned in a very strategic way, Scott, because I don't know if people un don't under.

[00:34:24] I don't know if people understand theological education is changing. The Trinity, the holy Trinity, so to speak, of bachelor's degree, master's degree, doctorate degree. It's not working in theological circles, and I would argue it's not working because it costs too much to do it nowadays. So these non-formal theological training spaces that aim towards personal development, like World Impact, we're going to continue to play a larger role in helping shape and mold the lives and the hearts of not only pastors, but congregants as well.

[00:34:58] So we're leaning into [00:35:00] that. And actually next March I go to a conference in Albania of all places from ICET, I-C-E-T-E, I don't remember all of what each acronym stands for. It's an acronym, but I don't remember all the wordss, right? But it's I-C-E-T-E and it's a gathering of 600 people of.

[00:35:19] Formal theological institutions and non-formal theological training, places like World Impact. And we're actually actively working on this question of shaping and molding theological education for the 21st century. So I'm excited to be going to that.

[00:35:32] Scott Maderer: Yeah. And I think there's also a place that shifting in a good way.

[00:35:37] But I'm not sure that we're doing it well yet, which is the laity the average congregant becoming more theologically informed and theologically empowered. You know that's starting to happen in some churches that. When done again, when done well it's helpful because it lifts the whole church up.

[00:35:59] That, that's not saying, [00:36:00] there's not a place for a pastor that's not saying the pastor isn't the leader and all of that, but it's, there was a mindset, I think for a long time of the pastor does it and we consume it. Yes. Yes. And that's not a good, healthy church whenever that happens, in my

[00:36:14] Alvin Sanders: opinion.

[00:36:15] No, it's not. It's not. You're right. Yeah,

[00:36:20] Scott Maderer: so you can find out more about Alvin and the World Impact Organization and the work they're doing over@worldimpact.org. And of course I'll have a link to that over in the show notes as well. Alvin, what else would you like to share with the listener?

[00:36:34] Alvin Sanders: It's been great being on this podcast.

[00:36:35] It's been great talking with you. I hope the listener has been blessed. And encouraged. If you wanna know more about these concepts that I've talked about, you can pick up a copy of my book uncommon Church Community Transformation Towards the Common Good. You can find that on Amazon, and that will talk a lot more in depth about the things that we talked about during this than during this podcast.

[00:36:58] Scott Maderer: Awesome. Of course, I'll throw a link to that as [00:37:00] well in the show notes so folks can find it easily if they're driving right now or otherwise have their handful and can't jot the name down and go look it up later. So thank you so much for having spending some time with me today.

[00:37:12] Alvin Sanders: Thank you for having me on.

[00:37:18] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the Inspired Stewardship podcast. As a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes.

[00:37:44] Rate all one word. iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review, and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get every episode as it comes out in your [00:38:00] feed. Until next time, invest your time, your talent, and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.