Episode 1101: Invest in Others - Interview with Leadership Coach Jerry Fu – Part 2

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Thanks for joining me on episode 1,101 of the inspired stewardship podcast.

[00:00:07] Jerry Fu: I'm Jerry Fu. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasures to live out your. Having the ability to understand and resolve conflict is key.

[00:00:25] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this, the inspires stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott Mader,

[00:00:32] you don't have to agree with every opinion that comes your way. Everyone has ideas on what she's doing with your life. Plenty of Asian friends who basically got pressured into becoming physicians when you felt they, they clearly had a heart for something else so that was the second thing I would tell myself.

[00:00:53] Scott Maderer: Welcome and thank you for joining us on the inspired stewardship podcasts. If you truly desire to become the [00:01:00] person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling and the inspired stewardship podcast. We'll learn to invest in yourself, invest in others and develop your influence so that you can impact the world.

[00:01:19] and today's interview with Jerry Fu. I asked Jerry about some of the most common mistakes people make with conflict. I also asked Jerry for his best tips on how to resolve conflict effectively. And Jerry also shares some of his top tips for developing others. One reason I like to bring you great interviews.

[00:01:37] Like the one you're going to hear today is because of the past. In learning from others. Another great way to learn from others is through reading books. But if you're like most people today, you find it hard to find the time to sit down and read. And that's why today's podcast is brought to you by audible.

[00:01:55] Go to inspired stewardship.com/audible to sign up [00:02:00] and you can get a 30 day free trial. There's over 180,000 titles to choose from. And instead of reading, you can listen your way to learn from some of the greatest minds out there. That's inspired stewardship.com/audible to get your free trial and listen to great books the same way you're listening to this podcast.

[00:02:23] Jerry Fu is a conflict resolution coach for Asian American leaders. He started coaching in 2017 to help other Asian American professionals deal with the challenges they encounter at work with their families and within themselves prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry worked as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012.

[00:02:45] Today, Jerry offers a range of coaching services, which includes individual cases. Group workshops and keynote presentations and his free time, Jerry enjoys travel, trying new restaurants and lots of salsa. Dancing. [00:03:00] Welcome to the show.

[00:03:01] Jerry Fu: Jerry Scott, thanks for having me.

[00:03:04] Scott Maderer: So last week we talked a lot about how you're working in conflict resolution, coaching, and helping people get better at handling conflict.

[00:03:13] What are some of the common mistakes people make when they're dealing with conflict?

[00:03:19] Jerry Fu: Yeah. Yeah. I know for me and my own struggle and failure to actually get better at this, the first mistake is avoidance, right? Somehow thinking that maybe I'll

[00:03:31] Scott Maderer: just go away magically.

[00:03:33] Jerry Fu: I know, right? Somehow the best word I heard talking about resources.

[00:03:38] There's a book called the four conversations by Jeff and Laurie Ford. And they talk about the, one of the best terms they use throughout the book. Automagically and somehow things automatically get better. As if somehow. People will figure out exactly why you're upset with them. And then fix that to fix the problems that you're upset about that they don't know about.

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] I feel like I see that a lot of relationships, they say if you really love me and you really knew me, you'd know what's up with you right now. And sitting there thinking that could be true.

[00:04:08] Scott Maderer: It doesn't really work.

[00:04:08] Jerry Fu: Yeah. And that was the one thing as a leader, you learn that you have to bang the same drum like every week every day, even because people are.

[00:04:17] It may make, it may seem repetitive to, you may seem exhausting to you and you can't assume that everyone is invested this year. So yeah. Avoidance is the first thing. And then a second sub point of that avoidance is overcompensating, right? Because you are avoiding the problem that that you're, that the, obviously I'm figuring.

[00:04:39] How to resolve, like now you're fixing it yourself instead of getting them involved. And they'll give you an example, just so it doesn't sound all theoretical. Let's say a technician mistypes of prescription, and I see the typo. I maybe we're busy. Maybe they're tied up with other things at, or they're not on, they're not available for me to give [00:05:00] them the feedback to make sure that they correct.

[00:05:02] And so I just fixed it myself. It's okay. One time. Yeah. I don't know the reason, maybe it's an operation. They're usually pretty accurate. Okay. But then happens a second time. Like the same mistake happens. And now now it's a pattern right now. It's a habit and I am not addressing it.

[00:05:19] And now I'm doing two jobs for the price of one, because I refuse to. Get them involved in train them up because even though that would, long-term be better for both of us, because now they know my expectations. And they are like, oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry about that. Okay. This is why here's. So here's so some justice to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[00:05:37] Overcompensating is a subset of the avoidance. The second mistake though at the big one is charging ahead, with no plan. And they just say maybe they've avoided something long enough. And they say, okay, I can't. They correctly realized that they cannot afford to tolerate this bad behavior any longer, but then they just charge ahead without really asking for [00:06:00] feedback, doing their homework about a situation.

[00:06:02] So the whole failing to plan is planning to fail. They think, okay. As long as I have courage and I charge ahead I'm going to get it done. And then they realize. They pounce like a lion instead of creeping like a chat, as I've heard one coach say, and then they realize, oh, now you have to apologize twice one, because you basically put the person on the defensive and number two, you were wrong about the situation, even though you had justified it in your head as to what you went through, when you felt like your assessment was accurate.

[00:06:30] A third mistake is they think that conflict resolution involves conforming the other, the person to your side that you have to twist their arm. And realizing that no, like what their side is completely without merit and they just need to come alongside and trust that because you are the leadership.

[00:06:51] Person then you are the expert that you're right. And they have to just come along. They just have to come around. And that will give an example for that too. At one point, one of my [00:07:00] pharmacists dispense the wrong dispense medication to the wrong patient. The technician typed up and filled the medication to the wrong profile that pharmacist go by and now we have a problem.

[00:07:10] And as manager, of course, I found out about this and I had to confront both of them and talk about, okay, what happened. And what do we need to change? And the most frustrating thing was the fact that the pharmacist kept the system and she goes, I just don't make mistakes. This wasn't my fault.

[00:07:24] Like she messed up and I had to say something like sure, false, you are supposed to catch and fix any mistakes before they leave this pharmacy, regardless of who made them. Yeah. It's okay, so what happens? And it,

[00:07:39] Scott Maderer: it's still your responsibility, even if you are the person that took the wrong action.

[00:07:44] Jerry Fu: Yeah, exactly. Like you are still goaling and unfortunately, like exactly, like I'm not taking away from the fact that she had a, she was a factor in this mistake and at the same time for you. I say she messed up [00:08:00] she's not the only agent she's not dealing with this isn't.

[00:08:02] I have to talk to everyone that's how I got past too. And I would ask her things like so what are you going to do differently? She goes I guess we'll just be more careful. I'm just like, no, like unacceptable. Like I need a more specific response. Even if I'm right, she just got some passive aggressive since then. She just really wants this my fault too. And it's just oh my goodness. And if I had to do it all over again, I would ask her and this may or may not be successful, but it there'll be, have a greater chance of success than what I had done actually done a couple of years ago.

[00:08:36] If I just said, Hey do you believe I'm on your side? Do you believe I'm just here to help you? Like we all have our, we all have reputations on the line because I'm manager. So even though I wasn't here for this era, so your responsibility exactly like the liability falls to me too, which means if it's partly also my fault that somehow I overlook this whole mistake, then now I'm on the hook [00:09:00] for this as well, which is why we're having this conversation.

[00:09:02] Do you believe That safety for the patients. This is paramount. Yeah, it's okay if we know that patient safety is his number one, then why would any of us be okay with this happening? Like why would you just pass the buck? And again there's only so much I can do with the personality like hers.

[00:09:20] But at the same time, right? I understand that, Hey, I need to shift from competition to collaboration. Confrontation might be for the initial point of contact. And I have to face this head on. And now I'm going to move to the same side of the table. So we can both look at this problem together and say, realize, Hey, we're on the actually we're on the same side and we're working toward the same problem.

[00:09:40] The goal is

[00:09:41] we

[00:09:42] Scott Maderer: have a common goal.

[00:09:43] Jerry Fu: Exactly. Yeah. We are actually I am not here to simply pin you for bad work. I am actually here. To help me know you be the best pharmacist you can be so that you can catch here and fixed areas like this. That doesn't happen again. So yeah, I'd say those are some of the most common states that I see.

[00:09:59] [00:10:00] And I know from my own journey and for others that I've helped walk through realizing Hey and other things, some people just say, oh, just lower your expectations. I think it's no, Yeah, that won't work. You can try it.

[00:10:15] Scott Maderer: You'll end up lowering them again.

[00:10:17] Jerry Fu: They'll just keep going down and then you definitely won't be happy, but you keep reading, you keep rationalizing.

[00:10:22] You're like maybe I'll just get over this.

[00:10:23] Scott Maderer: So let's flip the script a little bit and if folks are dealing with conflict and maybe in they heard some of their, they heard some of their own behavior in what we were just talking about, what are some tips that they can have to handle it differently or handle it more effectively?

[00:10:40] Jerry Fu: Yeah. And starting this out on another podcast, so I'll give the framework that I use. On my website, like actually I have a free download for handling hard conversations. That framework involves five steps. The first is to imagine what a successful conversation would look like, [00:11:00] or just to what sound like you think? Okay I want to ask my boss for a raise, but I'm having, I'm struggling with the language. Okay. How could this go in a good way? Cause when you imagine what success would look like. Cigna thinking I don't know what to do and I just try and see what happens.

[00:11:16] And instead of really thinking about the end goal and how you can get there, right? Don't just try to build a bridge measure it, measure the gap, you're trying to cover it. The second step is to find 10 seconds of courage. And I got this from a pharmacist friend and I didn't realize just how great it was until I kept using it for myself and for the people.

[00:11:39] And by the way, We mean that you don't have to be Superman or wonder woman. Cause a lot of people say if I feel like I have enough courage, finally I'll have this conversation that may not happen for weeks, especially.

[00:11:52] Scott Maderer: Yeah.

[00:11:52] Jerry Fu: Yeah, exactly. And so when you realize, Hey, I just saved, the shrink has changed, right? Thinking about like atomic habits by James clear, he's just[00:12:00] Hey, you just need to do like the minimum actionable. You realize, Hey, you know what, 10 seconds is all. I need to pick up the phone or send that email, send that text.

[00:12:08] And you'll have to say a lot. You just need to say, Hey, I need your help sorting something out. Like you don't have to be like overly specific. You just, you don't, but you don't want to be generally vague either, but just make sure you say, Hey, I need you to help with this situation. Are you available?

[00:12:22] That's all you really need. And so people are like, oh yeah, I can say that. It's okay, good. So do it right. The third step is descriptive. Critical moves. And so go ahead and not only imagine what success would look like or would sound like, but also write out exactly what you want to address.

[00:12:39] Don't let your thoughts rattle around up here. You might forget something, but when you take the time to organize it on paper, now you can say, okay, here's everything here. How does this flow? What would be the most logical way to present all this? Then the next though, like step four is key there.

[00:12:55] Don't just script them, rehearse them. You need. Put this into practice [00:13:00] see how you come across in the mirror, record yourself on your phone how does this come across? Send it to your friends ask your friend to role play as the boss. You're trying to ask for a raise for, from right.

[00:13:12] Now, like you want to get strong enough in the dojo before you actually find outside the dojo. And so the more practice and muscle memory you give yourself the more likely you are to succeed when you actually get to game time. One of the great examples is like the sedans from the civil rights movement, because unless the piece.

[00:13:33] Had friends to practice with you would blow smoke in their face or press the cigarette buses to the closing or gravel or shake them or intimidate them. If they didn't have that preparation, they would probably back off in the middle of the crucial moments. And then step five, just do it.

[00:13:50] Like you just have to follow through, you've done your homework. You've set everything in motion. You can't allow yourself to default to comfort because that's why you gotta shut the gate behind you throw away. [00:14:00] And just be like, okay I'm in the deep end of the pool, I can't reach for the life preserver or reach for the side of the pool anymore.

[00:14:07] I just have to get the set in motion. And so another way of looking at it we came up with the five CS of conflict resolution and that is first C is. Have compassion for the the person you're talking with. Let's say you're asking for that from your boss. Hey, your boss has a lot on his mind.

[00:14:25] Maybe he's not trying to be like a pain in your rear end and just be like the obstacle to The disposable income that you need to take care of other things because these are expensive the second is curiosity. Hey, learn about the situation, learn more about the perspectives, learn see what's really going on, be the detective. The third is courage, right? To set things in motion. Hey I need to talk to you can. Fourth is collaboration, right? Hey boss. I understand that money is tight right now. And I want to work with you on how I can justify a [00:15:00] race. I want to know how I can add more value so that you would be excited to give me this race and to feel like I'm really contributing.

[00:15:05] So I know I can be a better employee for you right now. You're selling the benefits on this and then five aim for closure, right? Closure is it is wonderful. Like when you find that resolution. And understand that. And tying back to the first thing that I mentioned, my framework, right? Success may not be a completely restored relationship.

[00:15:23] That's another thing that people need to watch out for closure might mean finally getting I had the Victor roommate at one point closure at this point was getting him to move out without having to call the cops. Other times it's just to say, Hey, you know what things aren't working out at this company for other of us cause in process of being fired, I've also had to fire people.

[00:15:41] And so to do it with a level of empathy and compassion. And to treat them with dignity, even if they've lost, the respect is very difficult, but very, also very necessary because I hate losing the job. I hate worrying about my next paycheck. I hate all these other things I don't want to admit this part about my identity okay.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] Let's help you land on your feet somewhere. Let's help kinda get you moving in the right direction. So yeah, that's another way of looking at it if they so choose.

[00:16:07] Scott Maderer: If you could give your younger self some advice, what are some of the tips or the hacks that you would give to your younger self to maybe smooth that journey?

[00:16:18] Jerry Fu: Yeah. Yeah. I would, if I could travel back in time, as you don't tell myself 10 years ago, say, Hey I would tell you that. Your bosses and paying you for stories as to why you didn't get the job done. Get the job done. That's all it is don't all he needs to hear is did you do this?

[00:16:36] And you say yes, right? That's all you need to tell him that you actually did. The chop of the second is that you don't have to agree with every opinion that comes your way. Everyone has ideas on what you should be doing with your life. I know plenty of Asian friends. Basically got pressured into becoming physicians when you fail, say they clearly had a heart for something else so that's the second [00:17:00] thing I would tell myself. The third is to tell myself, Hey, you know what yeah, just if you're bad at something don't let that stop you. Give yourself a longer trial period to say, okay. Cause I talked to people about dancing and they'll say, oh I'm not that creative to ask for assistance.

[00:17:15] Okay, fine. Give yourself a six month run. And if after six months you decide that you haven't made any progress then just stop it's okay. And to allow for that and tell yourself, Hey, failure is another fatal nor final. Is something I know, I wish I had heard cause one thing I start my stories off with sometimes and say, how did this start?

[00:17:35] It really begins here and it's sell people. I got, when I it began technically when it got to see if organic. Because that was basically the depth of my pre-med aspirations. Even though there are plenty of people who have shared stories about how much struggle they went through to get through med school.

[00:17:49] I met a guy who didn't get into Ms. Console's third attempt. So clearly a C

[00:17:54] Scott Maderer: in organic, I guarantee you, there were some doctors out there that made it seem

[00:17:58] Jerry Fu: exactly right. [00:18:00] And so to tell myself, Hey grades, don't define you. If I had to say that again, Hey either you can let this define you and say I'll never do this again.

[00:18:09] Or you can say, you know what, this story is going to be so much richer if I overcome this. And to believe that you can't. That was the reason why,

[00:18:15] Scott Maderer: the way I made a C in organic chemistry to see

[00:18:19] Jerry Fu: now you have a great, now you have a great business. And so celebrate that. And so for people that hang on to that you just have to show them grace.

[00:18:27] It's just don't hire him. He got to see the organic chemistry. It's just like

[00:18:31] nobody, nobody says, oh, that's a deal breaker. That's a red flag. So yeah, those are some things I would tell myself to say, Hey, look Imagine what successful looks like for yourself, and not on, not because culture is telling you that because parents are telling you even friends with.

[00:18:45] It takes some time to figure it out for yourself. And five years from today, be willing to evaluate that. But one of my favorite books, I'm going to pepper out literature references throughout these podcasts. They're used to it. Yeah. Designing your life had a [00:19:00] wonderful point to make the book by bill Burnett and Dave Evans.

[00:19:03] So smart Sanford people, and they talk about Success is an intuitive process. Like what worked for you five years from now, five years ago, isn't going to work now and what works for you now may not work five years from now. And you have to take time to evaluate that because success, for me in my twenties was yeah a successful career as a doctor wife with two kids in the suburbs.

[00:19:25] And now. Tim Ferriss kind of rock the boat a little bit with four hour workweek and you realize, you know what, maybe I actually want a passive income stream that when I sleep, let's me free me up to invest my time. And the most important relationships that devotees meet that are meaningful to me.

[00:19:42] And I think in a way we're all looking for that still, we don't have to be slave to a nine to five job, but we don't want to ever let work dictate the terms of our life. Like we want to be able to dictate the kind of work we want. Yeah, those are some of the things that I wish I could tell myself.

[00:19:58] Scott Maderer: So if [00:20:00] somebody out there is hearing all of this and they want to be working and helping and investing in developing others, maybe they're in a leadership position, maybe they're not, but they feel a lot of times people will say I want to help somebody, but I feel unprepared. I'm not ready myself.

[00:20:18] What advice or what tips would you give them?

[00:20:20] Jerry Fu: This sounds, this may sound silly, but just start now, just if you want to do a quick chat log, like catalog your strengths, right? Take a test like I'll plug predictive index do a behavioral assessment to find out what exactly your strengths and blind spots are.

[00:20:39] Whether it's Clifton strengths finders which is another popular one or Myers Briggs, just do something that lets you learn more about yourself. And say, okay what do I like? Here's a question I've used. I said who are the people that are willing, available and competent, and what are what is your willingness? What is your [00:21:00] availability and what are you competent? Because if you can hit those three things then you have an idea of what you'd like to Metro, who you'd like to mentor. If you choose to develop people because yeah, you have to be willing.

[00:21:09] You got to want it. You got. You gotta be available. You got to clear your schedule so that you can actually meet with the people. And then you have to be competent, right? You have to have some level of previous success so that people will actually take you seriously, because I've been mentored by people who are willing and available, and I can assure you that just because they're willing and available doesn't mean I should follow their example.

[00:21:29] Yeah.

[00:21:30] Scott Maderer: You can follow Jerry on LinkedIn as Jerry Fu or find him on his website@adaptingleaders.com. Of course I'll have links to those over in the show notes as well. Jerry, is there anything else that you'd like to share with the listener?

[00:21:46] Jerry Fu: Yeah, sure. Yeah. When you go to the website, there is a free download. We may have mentioned this earlier in the previous episode about yeah.

[00:21:55] Free download on a framework to handle difficult conversations. You can also [00:22:00] schedule a complimentary 30 minute call just to share your story or a challenge. You need some help with no strings attached. You can also find my free book blog, where I discuss. Interesting and useful leadership literature, summarize it for you, give you some key takeaways.

[00:22:14] So if you don't have time to read, just check out the blog post, and hopefully that's enough to get you going, or it's inspire you to read the book yourself and see what kind of dialogue that leads to other things on. Or available, I have a monthly book discussion. It's just 10 bucks a person the first Wednesday of every month.

[00:22:28] We do some networking. I'll give you a book summary and then there's some facilitate discussion. So it's a great opportunity to network, get some insights and even stay in touch and keep each other accountable with whatever next actions you want to take after having heard the book summary.

[00:22:40] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast. As a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listened, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoy this episode [00:23:00] please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.

[00:23:09] All one. ITunes rate, it'll take you through how to leave a rating and review and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get every episode as it comes out in your feed until next time, invest your time, your talent and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.