SNS 138: Saturday Night Special – Interview with Debie Silber on Post Betrayal Transformation

[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Welcome to tonight's Saturday night, special episode 138.

[00:00:06] Debi Silber: I'm Dr. Debi Silber. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent and your treasure to live out your calling. Having the ability to overcome betrayal in a healthy way is key.

[00:00:21] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this, the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott Maderer.

[00:00:29] Because I see people say of course of course I wanna heal. No, you don't. Cuz you have to give up your story and everything that goes with it. So it's. Scary territory. It's almost imagine here you are. You're on a trape and you're holding on to one of those bars right there, and then you even grab the other bar, but you're not going anywhere unless you let go.

[00:00:50] Scott Maderer: Welcome. And thank you for joining us on the inspired stewardship podcast. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, [00:01:00] then you must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired stewardship podcast, who will learn to invest in yourself, invest in others and develop your influence so that you can the world.

[00:01:17] In tonight's Saturday night special. I interviewed Dr. Debbie silver. I asked Debbie about betrayal and why she studies it. I also talked to Debbie about the three big discoveries she made while she was studying betrayal. And Debbie also shares with you how you can know if you have post betrayal syndrome and what to do, if you do.

[00:01:37] One area that a lot of folks need some help with is around the area of productivity. Getting not just more things done, but actually getting the right things done can be really tough. I've got a course called productivity for your passion. That's designed to help you do this [00:02:00] and then to hold you accountable and walk with you so that you can tailor productivity, not just to be getting more done, but actually getting the right things done.

[00:02:11] What's more, we take the approach of looking at your personality and how you actually look at things in the world and tailor the productivity system to your personality. Because the truth is a lot of the systems that are out there are written really well for somebody with a particular personality type.

[00:02:29] But if you have a different approach to things, they just don't work, but there's tools and techniques and approaches that you can take that will work for anyone. And we help you do that and productivity for your passion. Check it out over@inspiredstewardship.com slash launch. Dr. Debbie silver is the founder of the P B T or post betrayal transformation Institute.

[00:02:55] And she is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal [00:03:00] development expert. The author of trust again, and is a two time number one international bestselling author of the unshakable woman. And from hardened to heal the effortless path to release resistance, get unstuck and create a life you love.

[00:03:17] Her recent PhD study on how we experienced betrayal, made three groundbreaking discoveries that change how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on Fox CBS, the Dr. Oz show, a TEDx speaker twice and more. She's an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks, preventing them from health work, relationship, confidence and happiness.

[00:03:44] They want most. Welcome to the show Dr. Debbie

[00:03:48] Debi Silber: Thank you. Looking forward to our conversation.

[00:03:50] Scott Maderer: Absolutely. It's great to have you here. So I wanted to back up it, it's in the intro, we talked about betrayal and [00:04:00] how you started this post betrayal transformation Institute and all of these other things.

[00:04:05] Can you talk a little bit about how. Did you get to the point of studying betrayal? What brought you to that place?

[00:04:13] Debi Silber: Yeah. Yeah, it was just a great topic. I was interested in. No you studied betrayal,

[00:04:19] Scott Maderer: probably not something you were assigned by a professor somewhere.

[00:04:22] Debi Silber: No, you studied betrayal because you have.

[00:04:24] Do. And it's actually my 30th year in business. I started in health and then mindset and then stress and know, and personal development, all these things. And then I had a really painful betrayal from my family and thought I did all the work I needed to do to heal. And then a few years later it happened again this time it was my husband shocked, blindsided, devastated.

[00:04:44] I got him out of the house. And I looked at the two experiences and I thought, okay what's similar to these two, of course me, but what else? And I I took a good look and I realized boundaries were always getting crossed. I never really took my needs seriously. And I know if [00:05:00] nothing changes.

[00:05:01] So here I was four kids, six dogs at thriving business. And I was like, I'm going back for a PhD. And I didn't know how I was gonna pay for it, how I was gonna manage the time. But it just, I felt so compelled to do this. And it was in. Transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential because I was changing so much.

[00:05:21] I didn't quite understand it. He was too on his own. Wasn't ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal. What holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally, the people closest to west live cheat and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my business, my life.

[00:05:44] Scott Maderer: So a little bit on that you talked about how you noticed for you that there were some boundary issues not taking your own needs seriously. Self-care overlooking self-care and self needs. Is that a common factor that, that. [00:06:00] Shows up over and over again. Or was that kind of unique to your situation or alternatively yes.

[00:06:05] Both of those yes.

[00:06:07] Debi Silber: Yes. I think it's very common to, to just busy parents. That's just a commonality there it's, there are so many people and things to manage that. You just put yourself last. It's okay when everybody else is taken care of, if there's any time, energy left, that's when I'll take care of myself.

[00:06:25] Who the heck has time or energy? Who's got anything left when you're done with all of that. So that was a common common thing I saw but I. But also what I saw was it is so common for us. And this was part of, one of the discoveries. It was actually the sort of the setup. And I just saw this with everybody, including myself, where if you imagine four legs of a table, right?

[00:06:50] Imagine the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody. was this real heavy lean on the [00:07:00] physical and the mental, the thinking and doing and not really prioritizing the emotional and the spiritual, the feeling and being, because we have so much to do, it's almost as if the only way we can get it done is to become almost machinelike and shut down the part of ourselves.

[00:07:15] That feels because that takes time. It's easier just to as energy. Yeah, exactly. So that's, that was a common, really common theme I

[00:07:25] Scott Maderer: saw for getting to be human beings as well as human doings. Exactly. Cuz we're designed to be human beings. So let's talk a little bit about betrayal itself before we go into the study and some of the discoveries you made.

[00:07:39] Yeah. I, when we say betrayal, I I like to define things, because even though we say words and we think, oh, everyone means the same thing. When they say that know, what do you mean by betrayal? Why is that an issue? Why does it hurt? Why does it have an impact on us? Tell us a little bit more, more about what you mean by betrayal.

[00:07:57] Debi Silber: Sure. So I define it as the [00:08:00] breaking of a spoken or UNS spoken rule. And every relationship has them. And the way it works is the more we trust and the more we depend on that person, the deep, and then there's the deeper, the betrayal. So for example, a child who is completely dependent on their parent and then the parent does something awful.

[00:08:17] That's gonna have a different impact than your best friend, sharing your secret, then your coworker taking for your idea. It's. Still a betrayal, right? Different level of cleanup left in the wake. But it's, it has so many faces. It could be a friend, a partner, a family member, someone in a position of authority.

[00:08:34] We could feel betrayed by a company. We could feel betrayed by health. Our health it's, there are so many forms. It takes. .

[00:08:44] Scott Maderer: Yeah I think E even self betrayal in terms of I've heard people say I was betrayed by my body, or I was betrayed by oh,

[00:08:53] Debi Silber: it's huge. It's huge. Even a self betrayal is a really big one.

[00:08:56] And there's a really common link between betrayal and [00:09:00] self betrayal, because let's say you and know someone or something is not in your best interest. But there's something about us that just keeps going back for more, you keep hitting the cookies or go going with that person, whatever it is.

[00:09:14] So that's self betrayal and

[00:09:16] Scott Maderer: it really destructive being in a destructive relationship. And that doesn't necessarily mean with a person could be with food. It could be with know, other baby as well. Exactly. . Yeah. So let's talk about this study. You did all of this work and you mentioned you came up with three groundbreaking or massive discoveries.

[00:09:36] Yeah. What lay those out for us and talk a little bit about '

[00:09:39] Debi Silber: em. Sure. So the first one was originally I was studying betrayal and posttraumatic growth cuz you know, betrayal's dark topic here and I'm always looking for the upside of something. And so post traumatic growth is if you can imagine.

[00:09:52] Kind of an upside of sure. Of any trauma how that trauma death of a loved one disease, natural disaster, whatever it is, leaves you [00:10:00] with a new insight awareness perspective that you didn't have beforehand. Maybe you lose someone you love and you realize life is short. For example, But I had been through death of a loved one.

[00:10:09] I'd actually been through disease. I was in the ICU for 11 to. Hello, this topic, but betrayal felt very different for me. I didn't wanna assume it was the same for everyone. So I asked all my study participants. I said, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, is it different for you? Hands down unanimously.

[00:10:28] Every one of them said, oh my gosh, it's so different. And here's why, because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally, so the entire self is shattered and has to be rebuilt rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. These are gigantic and they're all destroyed. So it didn't quite qualify as post-traumatic growth.

[00:10:52] It's like, yes, you need to rebuild your life. But you also need to rebuild yourself. So I coined a new term post betrayal transformation. [00:11:00] So that's the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal, that was the first discovery on that one. You before you go on to the next one it's interesting because like you think about death of a loved one, it's personal, but it doesn't feel intentional.

[00:11:16] Scott Maderer: So is it I guess what I'm asking is it both of those factors together or is it. Is that what makes it different? So to

[00:11:24] Debi Silber: speak it's the attack to the self where let's say death of a loved one, right? Let, for example, I lost my mom I it, we don't necessarily question everything. We miss that person we grieve, we mourn life will never be the same, but we don't necessarily question.

[00:11:42] Did they ever love me? Was that ever did they reject me? Was I abandoned? Do I have a, what is my trust shattered? It's like those areas are pretty much intact. But when it comes to a betrayal, which is this sort of like we had this rule, this spoken or [00:12:00] unspoken rule, and without my awareness or consent, you chose to break that rule.

[00:12:04] It's a very different experience.

[00:12:06] Scott Maderer: So it's I'm taking another example. If somebody's in a a car wreck, bad car wreck and becomes paralyzed or injured in some way. I can see how that would still be. Not the same as the broken trust situation.

[00:12:21] Debi Silber: It's still, yeah, it's still horrible.

[00:12:23] Your life has forever

[00:12:25] Scott Maderer: changed. I have massive recovery to do, but different all

[00:12:28] Debi Silber: of that right now. However, if the car wreck happened, because the person you trusted said, I will never drink again. And then there, they were behind the wheel then it's now. Yeah, both. you see what I mean?

[00:12:41] So it's the intentionality of it and it's the breaking of that trust and of that rule spoken around unspoken so what about the second discovery?

[00:12:52] Yeah, so the second one, this was interesting too. The third one blew my mind, but here's the second one. This was very interesting.

[00:12:58] Also the second one [00:13:00] was that we found there's this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome and we've had over 45,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. Now, a few things about that.

[00:13:18] The first thing is we've all been taught. Time Hills, all wounds. I have the proof when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like my betrayal happened 40 years ago and I can still feel the hate.

[00:13:34] My betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust. Again, my betrayal happened 10 years ago. Feels like it happened yesterday. So we know betrayal is a very unique type of trauma that needs a very specific protocol to heal. That's the first thing Then every couple of months, I pull the stats from the quiz just to see where people land and I have them and I'm happy to share them if that would.

[00:13:56] Yeah. Okay. So now imagine we have men, women just [00:14:00] about every country is represented about 45 or so thousand people out of them. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. That's exhausting, right? The there 94% deal with painful triggers. And those triggers can just take you right down the most common physical symptoms, 71% have low energy.

[00:14:29] 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. Those your adrenals that have just tanked 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down later on. You're using for comfort 45% have digestive issues, and that's a range of. Crohn's IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea. Your guts are wreck.

[00:14:52] The most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. [00:15:00] 68% are unable to focus. 64% are in shock. 62%. Can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate. You have a gut issue you're exhausted and you have to work every day. You have to raise your kids. That's not even the emotional ones emotionally.

[00:15:14] 88% experience, extreme sadness. 83% are really angry, really common to bounce back and forth between those two. 82% feel hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed a few more. This is why I wrote the book trust again, ready? 84% have an inability to trust, right? 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again.

[00:15:40] 82%. Find it hard to move forward and 90% wanna move forward, but they don't know how

[00:15:46] Scott Maderer: And none of that It's not, if how should I put this? Those, their stats, those stats are amazing. And yet not surprising. You know what I mean?

[00:15:59] Debi Silber: And they're also [00:16:00] really high. It's 20%, 30%.

[00:16:03] No

[00:16:03] Scott Maderer: It makes it, yeah, there's a pattern there that is recognizable. I, in other words, as you're reading that I'm thinking of people and events and conversations, I'm not thinking of. Numbers

[00:16:17] Debi Silber: and here's the thing that makes it even crazier already, these numbers aren't necessarily from someone who's been recently betrayed, right?

[00:16:25] This could, this can be from someone whose betrayal was decades ago,

[00:16:29] Scott Maderer: right? If they haven't healed from it and moved past it, then they're still holding onto that. That's it? Yeah, that's it. We talk a little bit more about postral syndrome but before I go there, I want to wrap up the study results.

[00:16:43] So I don't forget. What was the third one? That was so amazing. Yeah.

[00:16:48] Debi Silber: So the third discovery this to me was the most mind blowing and the most exciting we found that while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime. And so many people do, [00:17:00] if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal symptoms of post betrayal syndrome to that whole heal, healed completely rebuilt place of post portrayal transformation.

[00:17:11] We're gonna go through five now, proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what it takes to move from one

[00:17:25] stage

[00:17:25] Debi Silber: to the next. Why is that exciting? Healing is entirely predictable.

[00:17:30] There is a

[00:17:30] Scott Maderer: roadmap there, I'm happy to go through this GA. Yeah we'll talk about those too. So let's go there next and then circle back to postral syndrome. When you think about these five phases what are they and give us a little bit of a little bit of a roadmap

[00:17:45] Debi Silber: to 'em.

[00:17:46] Yeah, sure. So it's what we teach within the PBT Institute. It's what our coaches are all certified. And I'm gonna give you a breakdown of the stages right here. It's mapped out in trust again, still gonna give you the breakdown. So stage one is that's before it happens. That's that four legs of the table that I mentioned [00:18:00] So imagine if we're all only focused on two legs the the physical and the mental were unstable. We're not solidly grounded, right? Easy for that table to topple over that's us. Now, that's not saying if you are just busy, you're gonna, you're going to be betrayed, which just a profile. I saw S stage two by far the scariest of all of the stages.

[00:18:20] And this is shock. This is D-Day discovery day, and this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. So right here, you've ignited the stress response you're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition disease. Your mind is in a complete and total state of chaos and overwhelm.

[00:18:38] You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned makes no sense. And your world view has just been shattered. Your world view is your mental model, the rules that prevent chaos that govern you and in one earth shattering moment or se series of moments, every rule has been broken. There's no bottom.

[00:18:53] The bottom, bottom down on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. It's terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were [00:19:00] to bottom out on you, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything you could. To stay safe and stay alive in that stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical of all of the stages.

[00:19:11] If you can't help me get outta my way, how do I survive this experience? Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? Here's the trap. This is by far hands down the most common place to get stuck in. Yeah. And here's why once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better.

[00:19:31] Then the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you think it's good. And because we have no idea, there's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until stage four, but because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we start planting roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that.

[00:19:49] And four things happen. The first thing is we start getting all these small self benefits. know, From staying here, you get to be right. You get someone to blame. [00:20:00] You get a target for your anger. You get sympathy from everybody. You tell your story to. And on some level, that feels good. And so you plant deeper roots here.

[00:20:08] You're not supposed to, but you don't know that now because you're planting some roots here. Now you start thinking things like maybe I'm not all that great. Maybe I deserve it. Maybe this, maybe that. So you plant deeper roots. And now, because these are the thoughts you're thinking, and this is the energy you have, like energy attracts, like energy.

[00:20:25] So now you're calling situations and circumstances and people towards you to confirm, yes, this is exactly where you belong. The misery loves company crowd. They come around now too. It gets worse, but I'll get you here because it feels so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go right here is where we resign ourselves.

[00:20:44] We're like, this is terrible, but I better figure out a way to make this work. So here. Right here in this stage three is where we start using food, drugs, alcohol work, TV, keeping busy, reckless behavior, anything [00:21:00] to numb and avoid and distract yourself from what's so painful to feel or face. So think about it.

[00:21:04] We do it for a day, a week, a month now to have it a. A year, 10 years, 20 years. And I seriously can see someone 20 years out and say that drinking, you're doing that emotional eating, you're doing that numbing in front of the TV. You're doing, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy.

[00:21:20] Sure. It happened 20 years ago.

[00:21:22] Scott Maderer: Do you I'm over that? I'm over that.

[00:21:24] Debi Silber: Yeah. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense? Absolutely. No, absolutely. And again, and I you're, , I'm thinking of people as you talk I can recognize this. Yeah.

[00:21:38] Scott Maderer: People mean, and I

[00:21:39] Debi Silber: found it's, although trust, again, maps out the five stages. Everyone was getting stuck in stage three. So from Harding to heal, this just came out. It is just for the stage three years, I'm coming for you because it's almost like the worst has happened already. You owe it to yourself to move through the stages and stop getting stuck in stage three.

[00:21:57] But it is by far the place people land in [00:22:00] state. Anyway. So if you are willing, this is a huge word right here. If you're willing to let go. Of those small self benefits, everything you get from it, you move to stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge.

[00:22:15] I can't undo my experience, but I control what I do with it. And when you've made that decision, you are essentially turning down the stress response. So you're not healing just yet, but you just stopped the massive damage you were causing in stage two and stage three The next thing is that happens is, and I always use this example of if you've ever moved to a new house office, condo, apartment, whatever, you don't take all your things with you.

[00:22:41] And what I found was you are moving into this new mental space, not quite cozy yet. But you'll figure it out. But when it comes to that move, you don't take care of thing with you. If your friends weren't there for you, you don't take 'em with you right here is where you've [00:23:00] outgrown them.

[00:23:01] If they, if if they don't rise, they don't come. And people say me all the time, what the heck I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation and if they don't rise, they don't join you so very common to have a shift in friendships right here.

[00:23:14] Anyway, when you move into this mental space, You make it cozy. You make it home. You make it. Okay. You move into the fifth, most beautiful stage. And this is healing rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal self love, self care, eating well exercising. We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier.

[00:23:33] We were surviving. Now we do the mind starts to heal. You're making new rules. You're making new boundaries based on the road you just traveled. And we have a new world view based on what so clearly now, and in the beginning, remember the. The four legs of that table. It was all about the physical and the mental by this point were solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual two.

[00:23:55] Those are the five stages

[00:23:56] Scott Maderer: So something came to my mind while you were talking [00:24:00] about stage four and that idea of the friends don't rise. And sometimes they say mind is there. Is there cases of people maybe making quote forays into stage four and because that does feel less comfortable in stage three running back to stage three, so to speak.

[00:24:18] Is that yeah.

[00:24:18] Debi Silber: It's so interesting. You say that because I did two Ted X. Talks. And the first one was, are you sabotaging yourself? And I talk about that and here's exactly what happens. And I use examples of three, three clients where and I see this all the time. It's can you see my hands here?

[00:24:35] I'm gonna share something that, that your viewers, are we having viewers here or just let guest listeners, but. Just listeners. Okay. So then I will explain it. What happens is we start to change physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, but we don't want to outgrow our people.

[00:24:52] So what we do is we sabotage ourselves, so we don't, but we keep doing the work to grow, [00:25:00] but they're staying where they were. So we keep sabotaging ourselves. But the problem is. We like it up here. We like it in this new space and it's really awkward because the other people that other person may not have any interest at all in rising with you too.

[00:25:18] But when you've. Outgrown that old version of you and you have completely decided this is who I wanna be. This new version that thinks differently, acts differently, sees the world differently. It's easy to outgrow the people that don't have that interest in growing with you. So let's circle back to the post betrayal syndrome because we kinda left that hanging.

[00:25:41] Scott Maderer: And I'm sure as you talked through those stages and you talked through know, post betrayal there's some listeners that are hearing some things what, talk a little bit more about what is post betrayal syndrome. You listed some of the symptoms and things. Yeah.

[00:25:55] But how do people if that started to resonate with someone, how do people recognize if that's [00:26:00] something that, that's real or if it's something else? Yeah. Yeah. And this is the thing it's so common to say, especially if it happened years ago, we say, oh, it must be aging. Oh, it just must be stress.

[00:26:09] Debi Silber: No, it's not. It's your UN healed betrayal. I'll give you how it shows itself in health and work and relationships. We see it in relationships, let's say in one of two ways, The first way is a repeat betrayal. If you have a repeat betrayal, it is clearly unhealed. You keep having opportunities in the form of people to teach you something, maybe you need better boundaries in place. Realize you're lovable, worthy, and deserving, whatever it is for you until, and unless you do these people will keep show, keep showing up to teach once you get it, lesson learned. Now I'm not saying the betrayal is your fault. I'm saying the betrayal is your opportunity.

[00:26:43] Look in my example. Boundaries were getting crossed. Never took my need seriously after that second one, I was like, that's it. And for me, that was a huge thing enrolling in this PhD program. And it was in that gigantic move personally for me, where it was probably the first thing I ever did for [00:27:00] myself, my whole life changed.

[00:27:01] So you see lesson learned the second way we see it. In relationships is that big wall goes up like, Nope, been there, done that. That was way too painful. Not doing that again. And we think it's coming from a place of strength. It's not it's coming from fear. We keep the bad ones out, but we keep the good ones out too.

[00:27:17] We see it in health people go to the most well-meaning and amazing doctors, coaches, healers therapists to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition disease. Very often. There's an Unhi betrayal at the root of it. We see it at work too. Think about it. You want that razor promotion, you deserve it, but your confidence was shattered in the, you don't have the confidence to ask and you're bitter and resentful instead, and that's the energy you bring, or you wanna be a team player, a collaborative partner, but the person you trusted the most proved, done trustworthy.

[00:27:47] How can you trust that boss? That coworker, that partner you see it's shows up everywhere. And what are some of the I guess what are some of the ways you mentioned in, in stage three [00:28:00] know, often we end up in that kind of self medicated behavior. How

[00:28:03] Like a profile

[00:28:04] Scott Maderer: of someone.

[00:28:05] Yeah. How do we know? How do we know if that's what we're

[00:28:07] Debi Silber: doing? Okay so here's a profile here's, let's call her Sue before and I talk about this in my second Ted do you have postal syndrome? So imagine before she says a word, you could feel her stress, her anxiety, her sadness, her pain, she can't sleep.

[00:28:24] So she's taking something to help her sleep. She has no energy. So she's using sugar and caffeine to help get her through the day. She's not eating well because of the sugar and CA Aine and the not eating well. She's been putting weight. On recently, probably in her gut, because that's typically where cortisol, the stress hormone will pack storage for us because it can't deal with it.

[00:28:46] Now she has no patients, her nerves are on end. She goes to her doctor who then prescribes a mood stabilizer, an anti-anxiety medication. She's just doing everything she can to make it [00:29:00] through her day. But at the root of it is this Unhi betrayal. So her immune system is shot. Her gut is wrecked.

[00:29:08] Her adrenals have tanked she's surviving. And that's it. And she's choosing some way to self-medicate, whether that's through drugs, food, alcohol, whatever, and watching TV, anything to get her through the day and while it may make the day a bit easier. It's not helping her heal.

[00:29:28] In fact, there were three groups in the study who did not heal. And I'm happy to share what that looks like too. Yeah, absolutely. So the first one, this was the group that were numbing, avoiding distracting. Like just like this woman I was talking about. And they would go and get a prescription for something or numb out in front of the TV or emotionally eat or drink and they didn't heal the and I assume that.

[00:29:53] Going into this. And as a researcher, you're not supposed to assume anything. I was new at this. And I was like, the people who were the hardest [00:30:00] hit would probably grow the least because they have the most to overcome that had nothing to do with it at all, nothing. It was the ones who put their head down and said, I'm not picking my head up until I'm out.

[00:30:10] The other side. Those are the ones who blew the doors off of the, and who were numbing and medicating. That was the first one, the second group. This was the group who refused to accept their story. They weren't having it. They had their story. They were sticking with it deeply rooted in stage three. And the third group, this was the group where the betrayer had no consequences.

[00:30:29] So whether it was out of financial fear, not wanting to break up a family not wanting to be alone, religious reasons that played a big role in this too. They did whatever they could. Good. Just to turn the other cheek, not look at it, not see, not do anything. I saw two things. With this group, the first was a further deterioration of the relationship.

[00:30:50] And the second thing was that group was the most physically sick.

[00:30:52] Scott Maderer: Your

[00:30:54] Debi Silber: broken heart. Can't handle that. And and they really struggled, but I get it people are so afraid [00:31:00] of that death and destruction of the old, but it's only with that death and destruction of the old, can you rebirth the new like in my own scenario rebuilding is always a choice.

[00:31:12] Whether you rebuild yourself and you move on, that's what I did with my family. Wasn't an option to rebuild with them, or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you can have the opportunity sometimes to create something entirely new. I'm talking like from the ground up new with the person who hurt you.

[00:31:29] And that's what I did with my husband. So not long ago as two totally transformed revamped people, we married each other in, again, new rings. New vows, new dress center, four kids is our bridal party. But I get it. A lot of people don't want that the final death in destruction. But the betrayal caused that.

[00:31:49] So you may as well make it a final, complete total break and then have the opportunity to create something totally new.

[00:31:58] Scott Maderer: And that that kind of brings to [00:32:00] the flip of that. We're talking about people getting stuck in stage three and know that what are actually the keys to moving forward to healing, to, to overcoming the experience itself.

[00:32:11] Debi Silber: Yeah. There, there are so many things you need to do. But if I were to say, what's the one word it's willingness because I see people say of course of course I wanna heal. No, you don't. Of course. Yeah. Cause you have to give up your story and everything that goes with it. So it's scary territory.

[00:32:25] It's almost imagine here you are. You're on a trape and you're holding on to one of those is right there. And then you even grab the other bar. But you're not going anywhere unless you let go of the first one. And what I see with so many people is yes, they may have grabbed onto that second bar, but they are hanging off for dear life to the first one.

[00:32:45] So they're stuck. So there is this grieving, there's this morning, there's this negotiating with yourself and reworking your story. And so many other things you need to do and then you do you can move to stage four, but it is unfamiliar. [00:33:00] And people think it's so scary.

[00:33:01] This is the devil. I know that doesn't mean just because it's familiar doesn't mean it's good. It only means it's familiar. Just like everything else that at one time was not familiar. And now it is this new version of you is completely unfamiliar. But that's the opportunity and betrayal really lends itself.

[00:33:20] To creating an entirely new identity. You take everything you love and you lead behind everything that no longer serves. And that's what post betrayal transformation is about. You are creating this version of you that never would've had the opportunity to show up had that not happened.

[00:33:36] That's trauma

[00:33:36] Scott Maderer: well served and in a way it's the, it reminds me of the Jim Collins business book, which is know, good to great. And he talks there about how good is the enemy of the great sometimes we get to a point where it's this is good enough. I'm okay.

[00:33:51] As opposed to. Transforming and recreating and becoming something even better. Well

[00:33:57] Debi Silber: And I use this example and you'll [00:34:00] see it right here. I use this analogy and it's in, and it's in, do you have post portrayal syndrome in that Ted? And it was, I talk about a house and here's the difference between resilience and transformation, right?

[00:34:10] Resilience you need for your every day. Very worthy. You need it for your every day. Transformation's a whole different thing. So let's say there's a house and let's say the house needs a boiler. You get a boiler that would be resilience. You're restoring it. Let's say it needs a new roof. Yeah. New roof.

[00:34:22] That's resilience. You're bringing it back. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes along and levels your house. A new, boiler's not fixing it and a new, roof's not fixing it, but here's the thing. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, this is the most horrible, tragic, awful thing that's ever happened.

[00:34:43] And you'd be right. And you can call all your friends over and say, look at this, isn't this the worst devastation you've ever seen. And they'd all agree. And you can kick and screaming morning cry until your last breath. However, should you choose to rebuild your house? You don't have to, but if you choose to, why would you build the same [00:35:00] house?

[00:35:00] Why not give it everything, the house didn't have, make it better, make it more beautiful. That's the opportunity right there.

[00:35:05] Scott Maderer: You live at a house that you complain about the floor plan. Now you have an opportunity to rebuild it and you go back and go, let's build it exactly back exactly the way it used to be.

[00:35:14] Debi Silber: that makes no sense to me.

[00:35:17] Scott Maderer: And yet I I think we do that sometimes as we stay there. So I. So I'm gonna move to a couple of questions that I like to ask all of my guests, but before I go there, is there anything else you'd kinda like to share with the listener to sum up what we've talked about today around betrayal?

[00:35:32] Debi Silber: Yeah. Just really what I would say is, first of all, I know how painful it is. I've been through it. And I know there is, I really look at portrayal as one of the most painful of the human experiences. But having said that you can also heal from all of it. I'm living proof. So are our coaches members within our community.

[00:35:48] And I didn't do any think anybody else couldn't do. It's just, there's a roadmap now for you. don't stay

[00:35:54] Scott Maderer: stuck. Absolutely. So my brand is inspired stewardship and I [00:36:00] run a lot of my thinking and a lot of my life through that idea of stewardship and yet kinda like we were talking about when I said let's define what betrayal actually even means.

[00:36:09] I've discovered over the years that when I use that word, it means different things to different people. For you. When you hear that word stewardship, what does that mean to you and what. How would you phrase that word and the impact that maybe it's had on your life?

[00:36:22] Debi Silber: Yeah. I would really look at it just from a very personal example of this happened to me.

[00:36:29] And I could have either been the poster child for betrayal, or it is my complete mission, passion purpose to help as many people as humanly possible, given my experience. And that's me kind of being a steward in. Arena of betrayal.

[00:36:45] Scott Maderer: Absolutely. So if I had invented a magic machine and I grabbed you out of the chair where you're sitting, or the place where you're standing today, and I was able to pull you into the future, maybe a hundred to 150 years.

[00:36:58] And you were able to look [00:37:00] back on your life and magically, see all of the ripples and impacts that you what's the impact that you hope you've left behind on the world. Oh

[00:37:07] Debi Silber: As AA is to alcohol, the PBT Institute is for betrayal.

[00:37:10] Scott Maderer: So what's coming next for Dr. Debbie is you continue on this journey to living out your call and impacting the world. What's on the roadmap. The what's next is just growing this beautiful community and just letting the world know there are these five stages and getting as many doctors, coaches, healers therapists, to understand the five stages to move their clients and patients through the five stages.

[00:37:33] Debi Silber: And to have everybody know there's a, there is a space to move through it with everything that the research proved. Works, excluding everything that doesn't and just get the work done and just growing this space of the world knows.

[00:37:46] Scott Maderer: You can find out more about Dr. Debbie silver at her website, the P B T institute.com or find out more about her latest book over at that same website, but [00:38:00] slash from heartened to healed. Of course, I'll have links to all of this over in the show notes, Dr. Debbie, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?

[00:38:08] Debi Silber: Yeah. One thing is, even though it happened to you, it's not about you. And if you have to say that a million times it's worth it. And then I think everybody should just take the healed or hardened quiz. So they know exactly what stage they're in and they can just find that@healedorhardenedquiz.com

[00:38:24] Scott Maderer: And I'll have a link to that as well.

[00:38:27] And links to the TEDx talks that Dr. Debbie mentioned a couple of times, they're really worth listening to and great examples as well. Thanks for being here. Thank you for

[00:38:37] Debi Silber: the opportunity.

[00:38:38] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast. As a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode. Please do us a favor. Go over [00:39:00] to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.

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