Episode 846 Develop Your Influence - Interview with Mark Herschberg author of The Career Toolkit – Part 3
[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: [00:00:00] Thanks for joining us on episode 846 of the inspired stewardship podcast.
[00:00:07] Mark Herschberg: [00:00:07] I'm Mark Hirschberg. I encourage you to invest in yourself, your organization and others around you to positively impact the world by using your time and your talent to make this world a better place. Having the skills to succeed in your career.
[00:00:22] Your business is key. One way to do this is to listen to the inspired stewardship podcast with my friend, Scott Mader.
[00:00:30]I think about the full life cycle. Let's think about what's happening to the ultimate output and what we're doing to the environment, what we're doing and that preventative cost, while it would have slowed us down, it will have taken an extra year to produce this product. We'll have slow down progress. A little preventive cost would have been so much cheaper.
[00:00:48] Then now the cost of fix the environment to fix things. And we see this, I'm using the environment as an example, but we see this over and over.
[00:00:57] Scott Maderer: [00:00:57] Welcome. And thank you for joining us on the inspired [00:01:00] stewardship podcasts. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent and your treasures for your true calling in the inspired stewardship podcast.
[00:01:14] We'll learn to invest in yourself. Invest in others and develop your influence so that you can impact the word.
[00:01:23]He's interview with Mark Hirschberg. Mark shares his definition of leadership with you. Mark also shares with you how the culture of work is influenced by you and how it also influences you. And Mark also talks with you about the ethics of influence. One reason I like to bring you great interviews. Like the one you're going to hear today is because of the power.
[00:01:47] In learning from others. Another great way to learn from others is through reading books. But if you're like most people today, you find it hard to find the time to sit down and read. And that's why [00:02:00] today's podcast is brought to you by audible. Go to inspired stewardship.com/audible to sign up and you can get a 30 day free trial.
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[00:02:37] Mark Hirschberg has spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and fortune five hundreds. And in academia. He helped us start the undergraduate practice opportunities program, dubbed MIT's career success accelerator, where he teaches annually at MIT. He received a BS in physics, a BS in electrical [00:03:00] engineering and computer science and a master's of engineering and electrical engineering and computer science focusing on cryptography.
[00:03:08] At Harvard business school, Mark helped create a platform use to teach finance at prominent business schools. He also worked with many nonprofits, including techie youth and plant a million corrals. He was one of the top right ballroom dancers in the country, and he now lives in New York city. Or he is known for his social gatherings, including his annual Halloween party, as well as diverse cufflink collection.
[00:03:33] Mark has also recently published a new book called the career toolkit, essential skills for success that no one taught you.
[00:03:41]So Mark, one of the things that I like to ask all of the guests and people often talk about developing influence, and usually the first word that comes to mind is that of being a leader, that of being in leadership. And we've touched on leadership and talked a little bit about it in the weeks before, but [00:04:00] how do you actually define leadership?
[00:04:04] Mark Herschberg: [00:04:04] I speak about influential leadership. Most people who haven't had leadership training think about as positional leadership, which really is bare to find this positional authority. We think about you are in a senior position. You have authority, you can hire or fire people. You can tell people beyond this project, not that one.
[00:04:25] And we think that's leadership, but that has authority that has the authority to command, to dictate, to tell. That is different from what I define as influential leadership and what other people call influential leadership, where your ability to lead doesn't come from the ability to command, but the ability to inspire or influence when we think about some of the greatest leaders of 20th century people like Martin Luther King.
[00:04:52] He didn't come out and say, I command you all to change our society to change civil rights. He had no authority to do that, [00:05:00] but he said, I have this vision and I want to quote him because that's for him. And I'm nowhere near that inspiring. But he had this belief in a future state and convinced other people.
[00:05:14] This was a worthwhile state. He convinced people who directly were affected by it. Other minorities. He convinced other people who weren't directly affected by it, but knew that this was just and fair. He couldn't command them. He couldn't entice them. He couldn't give them money or buy them, but he inspired and influenced them to join in a movement and say, let us together work towards this change.
[00:05:39] And that is true leadership. So leadership doesn't come from authority. It comes from our ability to influence and inspire and encourage. And get people to work together towards a common goal.
[00:05:54] Scott Maderer: [00:05:54] So within that I have my own particular definition for influence that listeners of [00:06:00] the show have heard before, but let's unpack a little bit more.
[00:06:03]What, when you talk about influential that you've defined leadership, but let's unpack the word influence or influential a little bit. What does that
[00:06:12] Mark Herschberg: [00:06:12] mean to you? It is, I'd say and anything that is not that commanded. And so one way of course is influential leadership. As we said, we're not commanding you, but I'm inspiring you to come and help me and together we can move and change our current state.
[00:06:33] You can potentially influence in other ways. So I can. Engage in say a transaction or a deal with you and convince you that, this is in your best interest. When we talk about negotiations, for example, In the, page one of a negotiation book, we always say, this is not a, it's not a command.
[00:06:52] It's not, I'm telling you, sell me your car or else it's saying, if
[00:06:57] Scott Maderer: [00:06:57] it's that, it's definitely not a negotiation [00:07:00] anymore. That's usually called robbery.
[00:07:03] Mark Herschberg: [00:07:03] Totally different transaction model. It is about saying, Hey. That's a great classic car. You have, would you be willing to part for this many thousands of dollars, right?
[00:07:13] And so I am enticing you now, in this case, it might be more transactional in nature, but it's still ultimately your decision. And I have to get this deal to work out. I have to put together a package, which is usually not just a linear, here's a check. It's a combination of things that I offer and bring to the table to this agreement.
[00:07:32] We're reaching. That is attractive enough to you to say, you know what? I can stick with what I have, but instead, okay. I'm convinced I will be better off by reaching this agreement with you. And so that can be seen as a type of influence as well.
[00:07:47] Scott Maderer: [00:07:47] So let's unpack a little bit now of negotiations. We're going to, we're going to follow this rabbit trail to the end.
[00:07:53]I think within negotiations, one of the things that, that. Comes to [00:08:00] my mind is a lot of times negotiating has a negative connotation to it, almost a manipulative or abusive sort of connotation, more akin to the robbery than the negotiation. The example that we just use what are some of the quote, unethical or dirty tricks or tactics that move negotiation from being that kind of influential.
[00:08:26] Yeah, it's still transactional, but it is more of a building, a relationship kind of negotiation, as opposed to one that can damage those long-term relationships and B be seen as more abusive or more, more unethical.
[00:08:39] Mark Herschberg: [00:08:39] Good negotiators. Understand that when you enter into a negotiation, whether it's a one-time negotiation or a longer term partnership or agreement, you both want to bring something to the table and that together you are really partners.
[00:08:55] And that together, you're going to create a better opportunity for the both of you. [00:09:00] And that's how we see in negotiations. Unfortunately, some people look at them and see it only as zero sum as for me to win, you have to lose. Some people use techniques outside of the topics, instead of saying, okay I can do a little better on this, but then you have to come meet me on this other issue.
[00:09:21] They instead try to brow beat. You intimidate, you, yell at you, harass you nothing to do with what's in the agreement. It's about their personal dynamics and they try to use that to intimidate or pressure. The other people. We also see there's the classic used car salesman trope. So I go in and I'm trying to buy a car from you and we're negotiating and I'm getting you down on price and you're gonna throw in the undercoating and I get all the things that I'm trying to get.
[00:09:52] And we finally, after a long, 30, 40 minutes reaching agreement. Okay. Oh, good. All right. Yeah, I feel we finally did this. He said, [00:10:00] okay, great, Mark. I'm just going to go run this by my boss, get the paperwork
[00:10:04] Scott Maderer: [00:10:04] it's in the back room. And it's chained to his desk with one eye in the middle of his head and foams at the
[00:10:09] Mark Herschberg: [00:10:09] mouth.
[00:10:09]Did he come back in and say, Oh listen, Mark. I just spoke to my manager and he said, Nope, can't do the deal. But look, if you just come up another 500 and it's fine, I just can't do it for set amount. And what you're hoping for, as I say, I am now, so emotionally committed. Let's go. Oh, all right, fine.
[00:10:27] Fine. I'll do another 500 just to get this over with. And so you have lied and manipulated me. When
[00:10:36] Scott Maderer: [00:10:36] was this, by the way, just full disclosure. I sold cars for a while. The guy doesn't have one eye, does it foam at the mouth. And usually we weren't actually even going back and talking to him. We went back to the back room and had a cup of coffee and then came back
[00:10:48] Mark Herschberg: [00:10:48] out.
[00:10:48]Whether the real good on or not real truth,
[00:10:50] Scott Maderer: [00:10:50] we usually weren't actually talking to anybody.
[00:10:53] Mark Herschberg: [00:10:53] But anyway, go on. If you are talking to someone who, if you're not okay, now you're just. Now you'd lie. [00:11:00] If you are, what you're saying is, Oh, I reached an agreement with you for which I did not have authority.
[00:11:09] And so you misrepresented your ability to negotiate. Now it's fine. In some cases, if. John
[00:11:16] Scott Maderer: [00:11:16] lows. Yep.
[00:11:18] Mark Herschberg: [00:11:18] Tell him that. If you're trying to buy my company, I said, okay, we're working on terms. And we understand that by the way, this is subject to my board approval. We all knew that from the stark. And then we go to my board and yet they couldn't fix the deal.
[00:11:30] They're probably going to listen to me. But you knew from the start that it had to go back to them. That's not being deceitful, but it's when we claim to have the authority and we don't and then say, That's great. I talked you down this much or up this much. Now round two that you weren't expecting.
[00:11:47]And that's where it's unethical. And
[00:11:49] Scott Maderer: [00:11:49] full disclosure. I didn't sell collars for very long. And this is part of the reason why is because a lot of the things that they wanted me to do, I'm like, no, I know can't do that. Absolutely. I'm not going to lie to the person [00:12:00] that's wrong, yeah.
[00:12:01]Or financing $800. GT for a 18 year old, those sorts of things where I'm looking at it going well, no, this is not good. So anyway when we think about that as well within that let's use that example. So one of the things that cause me to leave selling cars was the culture. Of the car place.
[00:12:22]Again, everyone did this was the norm. This was what you had to do. Air quotes around, had to if you wanted to work there, if you wanted to get ahead. And I think, part of leadership and part of workplaces is they develop their own culture over time. So how can we as individuals influence the culture of our workplace and then how does it also influence us?
[00:12:47] Mark Herschberg: [00:12:47] We need to stand up in situations like this. And now I'm going to guess when you did this, you were probably earlier in your career
[00:12:55] Scott Maderer: [00:12:55] actually it's between two careers. So it was when I was just trying to do something for a little while to [00:13:00] bring in some money. So it was I was older, but it was okay.
[00:13:03] Mark Herschberg: [00:13:03] Okay. Certainly in a situation where you felt the pressure for money. Yeah. I certainly know in my own career when I was younger and felt. Do I want to stand up and make ways and risk my job when I've only been here for three months. And what's that going to do to my resume? If I don't keep this job because I spoke up some of us, we unfortunately have these pressures.
[00:13:25] I know it's not always easy to stand up. Unfortunately, I know I'm at a point in my career now and I suspect you are. We can say, you know what? I have clear ethical lines. I don't need this. I can walk away. We are not always in a position to do that. Ideally, we should be able to just speak up and try to change it.
[00:13:44] It gets easier when we are not the sole voice. And so finding other people and not standing up in the crowded room, but having one-on-one conversations and saying, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this. What do you think? Are you comfortable with it? [00:14:00] Maybe you see something I don't, and I'm not thinking about it the right way.
[00:14:03] Oh, you're not comfortable either. Let's find out who else is uncomfortable. And let's find out, and now it's not one voice, but multiple voices. And ultimately we do have to make a choice. At some point we can either stay in the culture or we can say, you know what, I've tried to change it.
[00:14:21] It's not going to work. And this is no longer a fit for me. And as a decision you have to make based on your life and your constraints. But if you can try to change and improve things, because there are other people and you want to make it there for other people will be there in the future at a certain point, you might recognize you can't and you need to move on.
[00:14:44]Scott Maderer: [00:14:44] And to that point as well
[00:14:46] Mark Herschberg: [00:14:46] I think.
[00:14:47] Scott Maderer: [00:14:47] When folks it's it's language again we're back to words and language. As a coach, one of my pet peeves that I'll call out when my clients use the word is I had to, because the truth [00:15:00] is it's I chose to and again, that's not necessarily saying it was a bad choice or a good choice, or even an easy choice or a hard choice.
[00:15:07] It's still a choice. And. At some point, you have to recognize that you have agency, you have control, you have the ability to choose and depending on where it is at the continuum and where you are, again there's some things that. Yeah, probably you're not a hundred percent. But at the end of the day, whatever, it's not the, there are other things where it's no, this is truly, I can not sign my name to this in good conscience.
[00:15:31] Kind of, this is an earth shattering. I don't want to be associated with this and you might need to walk right then and right there. But I think I love the fact that you put that in that context of, we all have pressures that are internal, that are external. That affects that decision making.
[00:15:48] So it doesn't necessarily make you bad or good but what I would say is to take the language I had to out of it and make it and recognize that it is a choice and then make that choice consciously and delivery.
[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Mark Herschberg: [00:16:00] I think that is so critically important, right? Because you're giving up your agency.
[00:16:04] When you say I had to, when you say, I felt I needed to, then you can say, okay, why did you need, why did you feel that way? It's because I had financial pressures because of this, because of that. Now you recognize what the constraints are and you can work to address the specific constraints.
[00:16:23] Maybe you can change them, maybe not, but now you're focusing on the right issue instead of I have no control.
[00:16:28]Scott Maderer: [00:16:28] Yeah. And since we touched on the idea that folks can influence others in a negative way. And now we're talking about the opposite influence of doing it in a good way. Like you said, finding the other voices, what are some examples of using this influence power? For good or using it in an ethical way, and again I love the fact that you mentioned ethics in the book.
[00:16:51]Cause I think there's a ton of business books that ignore that as a component. So unpack a little bit about what you mean by ethical influence or ethical leadership, or why you talk [00:17:00] about ethics as one of those skills that we need.
[00:17:03] Mark Herschberg: [00:17:03] It's because as you said too many business books, don't bring it up too many companies.
[00:17:09] Don't bring it up. We see ethics as a nice to have. Once we're making profit, then we can think about, okay let's be ethical. Let's be good corporate citizens. And we can't think that way, we've seen this before where we said let's first make a product and let's not worry about the external effects.
[00:17:28] We'll just pollute the environment. We'll create trash, we'll dump things in the ocean. Oh that's a problem. Okay. Yes. Now we can start to deal with it. It would've been so much better if from the start we said, let's think about the full life cycle. Let's think about what's happening to the ultimate output and what we're doing to the environment and what we're doing.
[00:17:47] And that preventative cost, what would have slowed us down. It would have taken an extra year to produce this product. It have slowed down progress. A little preventative cost would have been so much cheaper than now, the cost to [00:18:00] fix the environment, to fix things. And we see this, I'm using the environment as an example, but we see this over and over.
[00:18:06] That the cost to repair. Once we've done something wrong, it usually much higher than the costs to have prevented as a society as a whole. Unfortunately, the individual level. That's not always true individual, not just you and I, but individual and individual company. And unfortunately that creates incentives much.
[00:18:27] Like with the environment, we have this concept of a free rider. Everyone else is good about not polluting, but I go and do, Hey, great. It's easier for me probably won't ruin the world. But then everyone says I'm going to be the one person who pollutes. And here we wind up,
[00:18:41]Scott Maderer: [00:18:41] They make more money.
[00:18:42] So therefore, now we need to pollute too so that we can compete. And now it's a rush to the bottom instead of a race to the top.
[00:18:50] Mark Herschberg: [00:18:50] Yeah, this is a prisoner's dilemma. Multiplayer also knows the tragedy of the commons. And so we need to stand up and draw that line [00:19:00] and say, we need to focus on this from the start.
[00:19:03] And when I say we, that means us as business owners, it means us as employees and individuals. It means what people are doing when they have walkouts in their company. And they're saying, this is not right, because it's not just customers, but also employees who have influence over what a business does.
[00:19:21] And we just need to incorporate this into our thinking one, unfortunately it problem. We face, we don't think about ethics until all of a sudden we do, right? You don't stand around thinking, Hey, what would I do in this situation? And then you face this ethical dilemma and there's usually time pressure and other pressures.
[00:19:42] I recommend spending some time ahead of time to think about if we think back to when we were kids. And we had fired rules in school. They'd pull the alarm and teach us. Okay. Everyone stay calm line up. Single file. Walk to the door. We've all been trained. I've been office buildings and you hear an [00:20:00] alarm go off.
[00:20:00] No, one's running for the exits. We all know, you know what? Staying calm is better. Okay. We're going to walk to the stairs, not the elevator and we're fine. We can handle it because we've been trained. We have not had that ethical training while it might not be second. So it's not like a fire and we have minutes to react to it still, we might have hours or days as opposed to weeks or months to really explore the issue.
[00:20:25] And so by spending some time ahead of time thinking through it, understanding where's the staircase, not the elevator, understanding that, we really shouldn't shove each other out of the way, because even though it might seem like it would help me at first, that's going to be worse overall for everyone, including me.
[00:20:41] Once we've thought through this and planned to bat, when we do face an ethical challenge, it's not a surprise if something we are prepared for, but that involves having these discussions today.
[00:20:51]Scott Maderer: [00:20:51] You can follow Mark on Twitter under career tool, kit, BK for book, or find him on his [00:21:00] website@thecareertoolkitbook.com. He's also active on LinkedIn as at Hershey and on Facebook at the career toolkit book. I'll have links to all of this over in the show notes as well. Mark, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?
[00:21:19] Mark Herschberg: [00:21:19] These are skills that don't simply help you. They can help everyone, your organization, and the more others you work with, whether they are your peers or whether they are your subordinates in your business, the more effective they can be in these skills, the more effective your organization will be. And it turns out as you want to learn these skills, whether it's developing your understanding of ethics and where your lines are, or developing your networking negotiation, leadership skills, these are best learned with other people.
[00:21:52] And so don't take this on alone. Create peer learning groups. This is how business schools teach this. Create these peer learning [00:22:00] groups and working out together, there's actually a free download on the resources page that teaches you how you can build these organizations within your own company. You can use my book, you can use other books.
[00:22:11] This is not just a ploy to sell my books. This is a technique that you can use to improve, and you can take whatever content you want, but I really encourage you to do it with others because that's the best way to learn these skills.
[00:22:24]Scott Maderer: [00:22:24] thanks so much for listening to the inspired stewardship podcast as a subscriber and listener, we challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen, but act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoy this episode. Please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes rate.
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