Episode 1642: Interview with Loren Richmond About How To Thrive in Ministry Not Just Survive

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Scott Maderer: [00:00:00] Thanks for joining us on episode 1,642 of the Inspired Stewardship Podcast.

Loren Richmond Jr.: I'm Lauren Richmond, Jr. And I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent, and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to be clear on your values and goals is key, and one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this.

Inspired Stewardship podcast with my friend Scott Maderer

being said, if you're a leader and you're listening to this and you're grappling with your own things, I think a few things you can do is one is like have a close set of relationships in your life within the field of work you're doing that you can be honest with and and say like. Hey, I'm really struggling with X or Y or Z, or whatever aspect of my professional life.[00:01:00]

Scott Maderer: Welcome and thank you for joining us on the Inspired Stewardship Podcast. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent, and your treasures for your true calling in the Inspired Stewardship Podcast who will learn to invest in yourself.

Invest in others and develop your influence so that you can impact

Loren Richmond Jr.: the world.

Scott Maderer: In this podcast episode I interview Lauren Richmond. I asked Lauren about his mission to help ministry leaders thrive and not just survive. I also ask Lauren to share with you how to clarify your mission when life feels chaotic. And Lauren also shares with you some tools to help you stay grounded when discouraged.

I have a great book that's been out for a while now called Inspired Living Assemble the Puzzle of your [00:02:00] Calling by Mastering your Time, your Talent, and your treasures. You can find out more about that book over@inspiredlivingbook.com. It'll take you to a page where there's information and you can sign up to get some mailings about it, as well as purchase a copy there.

I'd love to see you. Get a copy and share with me how it impacted your world. Lauren Richmond Jr. Is a ministry consultant, pastor, chaplain, and nonprofit leader writing and speaking at the intersection of faith, culture, and church renewal. With more than a decade of leadership in churches and community nonprofits, Lauren draws from a deep well of lived experience, both pastoral and practical.

Lauren resides at the Denver Metro area with his family. He holds an MDiv from Phillips Theological Seminary and an MBA with a nonprofit emphasis from Hope International University. Lauren has served in diverse roles from founding pastor to food pantry director to public housing [00:03:00] coordinating, giving him many unique perspectives on issues related to churches and social entrepreneurship.

He is also the host of the Future Christian Podcast where he interviews ministry leaders. Scholars and change makers to explore how historic faith can speak meaningfully today. Welcome to the show, Lauren.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Hey, thanks for having me.

Scott Maderer: Absolutely. So I talked a little bit in the intro about some of the work you do, pastor chaplain, nonprofits.

Uh, I always think it's funny, we, we always end up with this long list of stuff in the intros, and yet at the same time, I don't think intros ever tell the complete story. They just gotta tell where we're at today. So take us back in time a little bit and talk a little bit about your journey and what has brought you to the point where this is the work you feel called to do and the message you feel called to put out.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah, thanks for that question. It's a hard question to answer 'cause I think in some ways, like, [00:04:00] I'm still figuring out how I got here, but I'm also like grateful for where I'm at. I suppose I, I have some like. Some regret, I suppose, in that it's taken me this long, but, you know, life is a journey. Right? Cause I can think back to even when I was very young in my early twenties, thinking like what I really enjoyed doing was reading and writing papers of all things.

And, uh I think it's just been for me, like trying to find the work that really aligned with my passions. Rather than fitting into prescribed boxes, or not necessarily even prescribed boxes, but there weren't a whole lot of career paths I really saw as available, I think.

Scott Maderer: So with that, what, uh.

Tell me a little bit more about that. What, [00:05:00] when you were younger, did, uh, did you have a, a dream, you know, were you one of the folks that said, I want to be an astronaut, or what, what was kind of your, your, what did you think your dream was gonna be when you were younger?

Loren Richmond Jr.: I mean, as a, as a teenager at least, I think that's.

Really when I started seriously thinking about like what I wanna do beyond like, you know, whatever my 8-year-old self wanted to do, you know, as a kid or as a teenager I should say, like I really wanted to be in, in church and ministry. I just, I think I had a really prescribed view, or I shouldn't say prescribe, but just didn't, I just had a pretty narrow view of what that might look like.

And then as I've grown and, and serve in different capacities, I recognize where my skill sets are and are not, and that's, I think, had, had, has shaped my, where I find myself today.

Scott Maderer: Did that come, how did that become clear the where my strengths and my skillset lie? You know, you, you kind of said [00:06:00] that I figured out where my strengths and skillset, but that's a struggle, you know?

So how, you know, how, how did you start to figure that out? How did you get feedback on that?

Loren Richmond Jr.: I mean, I think a, a lot of trial and error, to be honest.

A lot of trial and error, I think probably is the most thing.

Scott Maderer: Yeah. So how did you get such wisdom, lack of wisdom? That was, that's how you know, that's how you become wise.

Exactly.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Exactly.

Scott Maderer: But I think that's important to say, because I think a lot of times people think that they're going to begin to get a picture of who they are and what they want to do by climbing up to the top of the mountain and sitting at the foot of the guru and mm-hmm. They'll pass it down to me from Unhi and usually it's messy and dirty and kind of.

By making mistakes and trying things and going,

Loren Richmond Jr.: right.

Scott Maderer: Oh wait, that wasn't, I thought that was gonna be different. Well, nope. Okay. We pivot. That kind of thing.

Loren Richmond Jr.: And one of the things that I've, one of the things that's brought me peace, [00:07:00] I guess I'll say it this way, is like recognition that, that every, everything I've done can be used for greater good.

You know, I, I believe that God brings, has a purpose, like certainly I wrestle with whether. Everything was God's plan, per se. But I don't think anything, I don't think God is ever like, oh man, like, what am I gonna do with that? Lauren?

Scott Maderer: Oh, Lauren, you screwed that up. Beyond belief. How can

Loren Richmond Jr.: I fix, fix that? Now I'm, now, I'm just, now I'm at a loss, Lauren, I don't know what to do.

Like I, I don't think God is ever like, oh, I don't know what to do with that. Like, God can take everything and. And use it for good. I, I believe.

Scott Maderer: Well, and I think a lot of times we don't see the dots until we're looking backwards, you know? Right. It's hard to look into the future and say, oh, this is how it's gonna work out.

Right. Or at least my batting average for that is pretty much zero. [00:08:00] But then I look backwards and I go, oh, that's why that was happening. I get it now. You know, I'm not smart enough to figure it out in advance. I dunno about anyone else.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Maderer: So talk a little bit of about your faith journey and your life journey.

One of the things I like to highlight on the show is that kind of intersection between faith and life and life and faith, and you know, obviously we've already been talking a little bit about God, and God could make all things for good, but for you, what was that journey like and that kind of feedback loop between the two?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah, so I grew up very much involved in church when I was a kid. My dad was a pastor. My dad left the ministry, that's not really the right word. Had a, a gap from serving professionally, I guess in ministry. Might be a better way to say it, during my teenage years, which certainly was influential probably in a good way.

'cause [00:09:00] you've many of, there's many stories about pastors, kids who kind of go off the deep end.

Just seeing, you know, the. How the sausage is made and, and how difficult it is sometimes being in ministry and the pressures that are on pastors kids and their family. So I was fortunate not to have to deal with many of those same pressures.

Went to bible college to train in ministry. Went for, worked for a church after I was married, right after college, and then kind of went through a little bit of a. I shouldn't say a little bit of pretty significant, I suppose, deconstruction before it was cool and thankfully found my way back into church.

Different tradition, but something that's been meaningful for me and in many ways I've been continuing to explore and, and appreciate all aspects I think of theology and um, Christian tradition in the years since. [00:10:00]

Scott Maderer: So with the work you do now with churches and ministry and, you know, different settings that you've worked in, I think right now there's a lot of uncertainty, uh, disruption, whatever word you want to use in a lot of the Christian circles, especially here in the us but I think worldwide, there's a certain level of this everywhere.

When. When the ground kind of feels shaky like that what do you do to help or what do you suggest or what have you done in your role as a leader to kind of help bring people back to, okay, yeah, but this is what we can focus on, this is what we can pay attention to.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's always about coming back to what are like my core values, whether it's for yourself, whether it's for your organization, like what are we really.

What are we really here to accomplish? [00:11:00] Because especially in times of stress and and strain and disruption, it can be really easy to get distracted about what, what we should be chasing after. And I think those are the times where it's really important to have to those predefined core values and know what you're really focused on.

Scott Maderer: Give a, give me an example for you. What, what are some of the core values that you've identified as, as core to, to who you are and how you live?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah. So like two years ago I was working at a job that was fine. I didn't really like it at all. So I was really going through a personal struggle, a professional struggle, and, and one of the things that I did.

That was really helpful is I thought about like what really matters for me, like what are my [00:12:00] top values? So for one, it was, number one was faith. My faith and my Christianity was like number one. Number two was my family, and number three was church. And I, I purposely distinguished church from my faith 'cause I wanted to recognize it.

Certainly I believe. That the church is a gift from God and, and, but also like our human structures. I don't wanna equate the two, I guess. Mm-hmm. I saw the dangers of equating the two. So basically like a silly example of that is a couple, this is about a year and a half ago, like my dad's just now, again, serving in pastoral ministry at a small church.

And my in-laws attended church. So my, my dad was speaking at the church. My in-laws attend, and on a Sunday evening, it was a [00:13:00] Baptist church. So I thought, you know what my top three values are, faith, family, and church. So I don't really like going out or taking the kids out on a Sunday evening, right?

But I thought, you know what? This checks all the boxes decision made.

Scott Maderer: So when you talk to folks that are in ministry there's a lot of burnout. There's a lot of frustration. A lot of ministers talk about, you know I'm in circles where I have conversations with a lot of, of clergy mm-hmm. And pastoral folks and, you know, I, I often equate it, it's it's very much like talking to doctors, nurses, or you know, first responders, you know, policemen, firemen in that they sort of have this language of survival, you know?

Right, right. I got through another day, you know, kind of, you know, kinda language. And yet I [00:14:00] know. Two, that it's, that's not true of everyone. You know, there's other ministry leaders that I get a great seal feeling of, of clarity, of peace of, you know, and it's not that their life is better, it's not like everything's going perfect for them.

You know, they're still having the struggles and the hard days. What are some of the tools that you can. And again, we're talking about ministry leaders, but I think this actually applies to anyone, uh, and especially in leadership. What are some of the tools that you help equip people with to help 'em kind of navigate that fact that, yeah, some days, some days this job stinks, you know, but, but yet there's still something there.

There's something there that you can lean into.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Well, I think it's interesting and important what you just said there. We do tend to highlight the folks who are having. Difficulty in talking about how horrible the job is. Sociologist Ryan Burge, it's been a minute, but he came out with data suggesting that there, [00:15:00] the majority of clergy were actually content.

I think it was Ryan Burge, but they data came out that the majority of clergy were actually, you know, content in their job. So we tend to always hear about the, the troubled folks, first of all. And I think there is something that we need to recognize. I'm thinking of someone like, edwin Friedman, who, who was a expert in family system theory.

You know, his, his point was like, let's not always lean into, I don't remember if he used the word weakness per se, but let's, let's invest in strength. I think, think about that too, like. Invest in strength and sometimes, you know, if folks are having troubles, that, that, that's something they need to focus on themselves rather than someone coming in to fix it for them.

That being said, if you're a leader and you're listening to this and you're grappling with your own things, I think a few things you can do is one is like, have a close set of relationships in your life. Within the field of work you're [00:16:00] doing that you can be honest with and and say like, Hey, I'm really struggling with X or Y or Z, or whatever aspect of my professional life.

Like having a close set of friendships who can support you in your struggles is, I think hu Humongously important. I think having a consistent set of spiritual practices I think is essential. I think too, oftentimes I hear this like people will say. Like, I'm not the type of person who's good at sitting down or doing something like who's ever good at any kind of starting a new habit.

Like no one is, like, that's what makes it starting new habits hard. So I think there has to be some intentionality in doing that, like intentionality of setting behaviors. 'cause not doing what you're not doing is easier than doing something new. Like it just it's just the way it is. And then I think, again, as I've said, like leaning into what you're.

What you're calling or purposes in life. I'm thinking of a [00:17:00] conversation I had with writer and professor Ariana Malloy, who I think it teaches at Biola somewhere, Christian University out west. You know, she, she wrote a book and she talked about calling how people who have a calling in their life, like have a greater connection and drive in their work, but they also are more prone to burnout.

So I think. The last thing I'd say is just like, having good boundaries is essential. Because you feel called, because we feel called to work, it's hard to, to have boundaries and say like, Hey, I've done enough.

Scott Maderer: Mm-hmm.

Loren Richmond Jr.: So have good boundaries.

Scott Maderer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that last one about having good boundaries, I think is vital.

I tell people a lot of times. Growth happens not at what you say yes to. Always. Sometimes it's what you learn to say no to. Yes. You know?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yes.

Yes. '

Scott Maderer: cause until you've identified what you wanna say no to, there's no [00:18:00] room to say yes. Correct. And, you know, you burn yourself out.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Right.

Scott Maderer: So, with that in mind, what, um, what are some of the practical tools that we could put in place to.

Kind of help people do those practices that you're talking about. You know, you mentioned habit formation, how hard it is, and I'm big on habits. Yes. So, you know, what are some of the things that you've actually seen work? If somebody's hearing this and going, yeah, that's all well and good Lauren, but.

I, I've trying to do this for six years. You know,

Loren Richmond Jr.: I, someone introduced me to the idea of micro habits, and it is been, I wouldn't say life changing, but it's been really helpful to think about like

Scott Maderer: BJ Fox.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah.

Scott Maderer: Yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: I heard it from someone else, but yeah, like micro habits, the idea of like me. I always like to, I'm, I like to exercise, but again, like, let's say I wasn't into exercising.

Like me saying like, I am gonna start running three miles a week [00:19:00] or three times a week is, that's a huge barrier. Yeah. The micro habit is like, Hey, I'm gonna go put on my running shoes, like, can I do that? Uh, so those kind of micro hat, micro habits, I've also found a lot of success of like time blocking, purposely time blocking things.

Like this summer or really this spring, I started thinking like, Hey, I wanna write a book. And it seemed insurmountable really. So I did some things where I broke, I broke down like what the concept into manageable chunks or chapters, which is sort of helpful 'cause the book is chapters right. And then I really set aside time every Monday to write.

I remember like getting into that time period on Mondays thinking like, I don't wanna settle down. I don't know what I'm gonna write about. And then like, by the time my two or three hours would be up, it'd be like, holy [00:20:00] smokes. Like, can I keep going?

And I didn't wanna stop.

Scott Maderer: Yeah. That it's the feedback actually between belief and behavior or action and belief.

If

Loren Richmond Jr.: mm-hmm.

Scott Maderer: If you want to be a writer. Start writing. Right. You know, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can write. And yeah. Well now you're a writer. You know, where if you wanna be a walker, start walking, you know? Yeah. If you wanna be a runner, start running. Yeah. And the micro habits yeah.

BJ Fog is actually the, the person who coined that term. Um, sure. Others use it now as well. But, uh, he, uh, um, coined that term for, uh, and one of the examples he used was Floss one tooth. And the funny thing is, if you sit out to just floss one tooth, most people end up flossing every day.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Well,

Scott Maderer: you know, let, and they end up flossing their whole mouth every day too.

It's just, you know, but it's just the idea of cover coming at inertia. Yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Well, let me stay with the, the [00:21:00] personal hygiene like. I floss in the mornings because I realize I'm more motivated to floss than at night.

Scott Maderer: Yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Now, technically that may not be as good for my oral hygiene, but also, but it's better than not

Scott Maderer: flossing at all.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Right? Right. Exactly. So I think the principle here is like, there may be better ways to do things, but you gotta find something that you can do and you can accomplish within kind of your, your energy and personality and mm-hmm. Time context.

Scott Maderer: Yeah, I, I think that is. The Jim Collins from good to Great, you know, the business writer, but one of the things he says is that uh, perfect is the enemy of Right.

Good. Because

Loren Richmond Jr.: yeah,

Scott Maderer: all too often we're striving to do it perfectly, and so we never bothered to do it. It's like,

Loren Richmond Jr.: yeah,

Scott Maderer: wait a minute. Well and done is better than perfect and never reached

Loren Richmond Jr.: well,

Scott Maderer: you know?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah. Scott and I, I read a lot of books and part of me [00:22:00] realize like, Hey, like. Most of these books are kind of just completely whatever, like I can write whatever, so,

Scott Maderer: yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: You know.

Scott Maderer: Well, and I, yeah, I've written a book and I've helped several other people write books over the years in different ways. And it, it, it is. At once. Harder than you believe. And easier. Yeah. You know what I mean? Saying it. Yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah.

Scott Maderer: Because the, the things that I thought were hard about writing a book weren't, and the things I thought would be easy about writing a book was actually where the challenges came, you know, if that makes sense, you know?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Sure.

Scott Maderer: So, uh, but. Yeah, anyone can do it if they choose to do it. And when, um, when you're looking at the, at the work you do, when you you mentioned earlier, like family systems and some of the other things you're working with people in family systems. What is, what do you see [00:23:00] as sort of the.

Similarities between, you know, the church world, the nonprofit world, and then the for-profit business, you know, that kind of things. 'cause there's people in all different fields. What are the lessons that seem to kind of apply across all of them?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah. You know, it's funny, I was just talking with a colleague today in another kind of venture that we're starting and we were talking about money and how.

And the, the church has such a bad reputation or bad practice of talking around money.

Scott Maderer: The only time they talk about money is when they're starting a building campaign.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Right. Or, or when or when. The budget is in,

Scott Maderer: in dire

Loren Richmond Jr.: need. Yeah. But dire need, conversely, also, pastors clergy, were terrible about talking about money and,

Scott Maderer: and most of 'em are pretty bad at managing money too, honestly.

Loren Richmond Jr.: And certainly the Bible has a lot to say about the love of money. [00:24:00] Sure. And making the money, the principle of our lives. But also I think in our culture, money is how people, how we assess and convey value.

So to ask, to say to ask people to give to a church out of guilt or responsibility or even just 'cause they feel bad, like people will do it.

But if you say like. You conveying like the. You have value that what you offer brings value. Whether as a person or as an employee or as a professional, or as a pastor or as an institution, like a church, like, I think that's the hardest thing for especially churches and, and pastoral leaders to, to wrap their mind around like, I'm, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.

Scott Maderer: Yeah, I actually done a lot of work with churches over the years and my brand has inspired stewardship and one of the things I talk about with stewardship is, I'm trying [00:25:00] to reclaim that word from we're starting a building campaign and would like to fill out a pledge card because unfortunately that's sort of what that word is started to mean and it's like,

Loren Richmond Jr.: right,

Scott Maderer: no, that's not what that word means at all.

You know, it's just one small little component. Of mm-hmm. What it's meant to do. I once had a pastor invite me in to preach on money because he said he wanted me to cover the hard topics he was gonna preach about sex next week. Um, and he wanted me to talk on money 'cause that was the hard topic.

Uh, I'm going, I don't know. I, I think they're both pretty challenging. But what are, what, what don't I know. So I've got a few questions that I like to ask all of my guests, but before I ask you those, is there anything else about the work you do or the ministry, the, the purposes that you shared that you'd like to share with the listener?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah I guess I would just say like, I don't sell hype. Like I'm not interested in hype or silver bullets. Like that's not what I'm about. I've seen through those. I see how they never work. They don't work. You waste [00:26:00] time, you waste energy, you waste money. Uh, I don't sell hype. I'm not interested in hype or quick fixes.

I'm interested in helping pastors and leaders in organizations like build sustainable systems. For long term strength and stability.

Scott Maderer: Absolutely. So like I mentioned a moment ago, my brand has inspired stewardship and I kind of run things through that lens of, of stewardship, and I shared a little bit about what I think of that word, but I've also discovered that's one of those words that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

So for you, when you hear the word stewardship, what does that word mean to you?

Loren Richmond Jr.: I guess I hear two different things like the.

Not so the bad way, but I think a, a less emphatic understanding of stewardship that is often sold in churches is this idea of like, oh, let's steward our time and our talents and our money. And to me, I think it's like a cop out way to be frank of [00:27:00] talking about stewardship. Like we're too shy or too uncertain to really ask for people's money, for their value, for them to commit that this is something that they value.

Instead, we're gonna say, well, let's talk about your volunteering and your, your your other time commitments like this. Not bad things. Like every church, every organization wants people to commit time and, and volunteer hours to their organizations. And I think like, I think like being bold and, and certain in what you, what value you offer.

Can help organizations, especially churches, be a lot more bold in their their requests. Like, I mean, let's be frank, like the, even the sociological data is strikingly clear right now. Like church is an unmitigated good for [00:28:00] society. We should not be, we should not be ashamed to say like, this is something you should invest in.

Scott Maderer: So this is my favorite question that I like to ask everybody. Uh, uh, imagine for a moment that I could invent this magic machine. And with this machine, I was able to take you from where you are today and transport you into the future, maybe 150, maybe 250 years. And through the power of this machine, you were able to look back and see your entire life, see all of the connections, all of the ripples, all of the impacts you've left.

What impact do you hope you've left in the world?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Yeah, I think what came to mind thinking about that was like, first of all, my kids, like there is this tendency, I don't know what it's like in other Christian circles, but in my Christian circles, there's this tendency for kids to kind of just graduate from church and like, I want my kids to be, I want faith, you know, to be an essential [00:29:00] part of their life.

And I really. In the last several years, like really leaned into like, how am I gonna make sure that happened? Well, that's not the right word. I can't make anything happen. Right. So that's what I'm wrestling with. What,

Scott Maderer: what are you going to do to create an environment where

Loren Richmond Jr.: the

Scott Maderer: possibilities of that happening is high?

Loren Richmond Jr.: Right. Without being overly control oriented. Right. Which has the opposite effect,

Scott Maderer: which usually has the opposite effect. Yeah.

Loren Richmond Jr.: Right. So I think that's for sure, number one.

Scott Maderer: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. Well, welcome, welcome to Parenthood and having children. Right? That's, that's the hard challenge.

Yeah. I tell people all the time, if kids came with an instruction book, it would be much easier, you know? 'cause I'd read the instructions, but it's, mm-hmm. Unfortunately they don't. So, what's on the roadmap? What's coming next as you continue on your journey?

Loren Richmond Jr.: In about. Roughly [00:30:00] fall 26 here. So in a few months I have a book coming out, which I'm excited about.

Scott Maderer: What's the

Loren Richmond Jr.: title and, well, it's still sort of a working title. Church is Community Hub and we're still playing around with a subtitle from church publishing. So really excited about that. It's gonna be like an idea book. With the idea of churches utilizing their buildings to be a blessing to the community, you know, reach their neighbors and ultimately, uh, share the gospel of people.

Scott Maderer: Cool. Cool. Kind of a third space. Yes, exactly.

Yeah,

Loren Richmond Jr.: exactly.

Scott Maderer: So you can find out more about Lauren Richmond and I'm sure once the book is ready to go, you can find it over there as well, but you can find out more information about him at Lauren Richmond Jr. Substack or you could look, go to Substack and search for the church nerd.

Uh, that's probably the best place to key. Stay up to date with him, of course. I'll have a link to that over in the show notes as well. [00:31:00] Lauren, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?

Loren Richmond Jr.: I think like, go for it. I took a big risk six, eight months ago and it was actually about a year ago now, and uh, it was quite scary at the time.

I took some calculated measured risks, like I didn't just jump off a cliff, um, but I, an opportunity arose and I took it and I'm really glad I did. And, um, to have some people in your life who are gonna support you and, and taking those risks and encourage you to, to do what you feel like you're meant to do or called to do.

Scott Maderer: Amen.

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