Join us today for the Interview with Jerry Dugan, podcaster and coach from Beyond the Rut...
This is the interview I had with speaker, podcast host, and coach Jerry Dugan.
In today’s podcast episode I interview Jerry Dugan. I ask Jerry to share with you how he’s transitioned from the military and corporate work to coaching and leading others to live Beyond the Rut. I ask Jerry about his faith journey and how that affected him. Jerry also gives you some great tips on how you can live beyond the rut.
Join in on the Chat below.
Episode 1334: Interview with Jerry Dugan from the Beyond the Rut Podcast
[00:00:00] Scott Maderer: Thanks for joining us on episode 1,334 of the Inspired Stewardship Podcast.
[00:00:07] Jerry Dugan: I'm Jerry Dugan. I challenge you to invest in yourself, invest in others, develop your influence and impact the world by using your time, your talent, and your treasures to live out your calling. Having the ability to get unstuck and stop living in a rut is key.
[00:00:23] And one way to be inspired to do that is to listen to this. The Inspired Stewardship podcast, my friend Scott Maderer
[00:00:37] and Beyond The Rut is all about we want you to have your cake and eat at two. We want you to be successful in your career. We want you to be successful in your business. And we want you to do that in such a way that you're thriving in your faith and your family, and as a result of that, your health is also taken care of, and your finances are in a healthy perspective.
[00:00:57] Scott Maderer: Welcome and thank you for joining us on [00:01:00] the Inspired Stewardship Podcast. If you truly desire to become the person who God wants you to be, then you must learn to use your time, your talent, and your treasures for your true caller. In the Inspired Stewardship Podcast, you will learn to invest in yourself, invest in others, and develop your influence so that you can impact the world.
[00:01:33] In today's podcast episode, I interview Jerry Duggan. I asked Jerry to share with you how he's transitioned from the military and corporate work to coaching and leading others to live beyond the rut. I asked Jerry about his faith journey and how that's affected him, and Jerry also gives you some great tips on how you can live beyond the rut.
[00:01:54] One reason I like to bring you great interviews like the one you're gonna hear today is because of the [00:02:00] power in learning from others. Another great way to learn from others is through reading books. But if you're like most people today, you find it hard to find the time to sit down and read, and that's why today's podcast is brought to you by Audible.
[00:02:15] Go to inspired stewardship.com/audible to sign up and you can get a 30 day free trial. There's over 180,000 titles to choose from, and instead of reading, you can listen your way to learn from some of the greatest minds out there. That's inspired stewardship.com/audible to get your free trial and listen to great books the same way you're listening to this podcast.
[00:02:43] Welcome to the show, Jerry.
[00:02:45] Jerry Dugan: Hey Scott. Thanks for having me on here.
[00:02:47] Scott Maderer: Absolutely. I'm excited to have you, and I love the message that you have of getting out of a rut feeling like you're stuck in a rut. Obviously, as we've talked, a lot of similarities and a lot of the things [00:03:00] that we say and we look at in the world, but I always love bringing people on that have a different way of framing.
[00:03:07] That thing that we're all dealing with. Yes. Yes. But before I go there and start talking about that we talked a little bit about your journey in the intro and your service and the army and other things that you've done. But can you expand a little bit about on your journey and how did that make you end up in a place where now you wanna focus on helping people get
[00:03:30] Jerry Dugan: beyond the rut?
[00:03:32] Yeah. So at a younger age I saw my parents divorced when I was 11. My dad he had attempted suicide. We got past that. Fortunately, he did not succeed. Got the help he needed. And you would think that'd be the end of like hardship as a youth and. The reality was we came back to the US from Germany where my dad was stationed at the time, and my extended family there were two other uncles who went through divorce.
[00:03:58] So when you have that much divorce [00:04:00] going on, you have a lot of people who are hurt and they don't see a lot of hope in life. So my cousins also started to adopt this. Woe is me. There's no future ahead of us persona. And that's what I was being exposed to every single weekend. When we went to go visit my grandparents at their home.
[00:04:17] At some point, by the time I was 14, I just realized there's gotta be a better way. There's gotta be a better life. We lived in foster care and they had a very healthy dynamic that I'd never seen before. I won that in my future. I. I pay attention to my friends when I go visit them at their houses, and they have parents who love each other.
[00:04:36] They enjoy and look forward to going on family vacations. I want that my, my family, my extended family is telling me that there's no point in reading books and getting an education because we're just going to be on SSI for the rest of our lives. And I'm looking at my teachers who are pouring into me every single day and they're college educated and they're talking about hope and they're telling their [00:05:00] story their personal story of breaking out of cycles of poverty, and I'm thinking all these folks have done it.
[00:05:07] There's no reason why I can't. So at 14 years old, I drew a line in the sand and I wrote in the form of Christmas cards to my extended family, my vision for my life. I was gonna be the first in the family to go to college and graduate cuz I've had people in the family who started college, but they quit after a semester.
[00:05:24] A lot of quitting in my family. And I'm gonna be married one time only and I'm gonna make that marriage work. I'm gonna pour into my kids. Like I gave them my vision and about half the family loved it. They're like, go for it. We need that. We need that kind of inspiration. The other half of the family was kinda like, who the heck are you to talk to us like this?
[00:05:44] Do you think you're all special? Or and like the. They thought I was being,
[00:05:48] Scott Maderer: it's always interesting to me how talking about your own life makes other people decide you are putting yourself on a pedestal somehow, but, yeah. It's like the story of Joseph from the Bible. It's I have a dream.
[00:05:59] Jerry Dugan: [00:06:00] And it's who are you to tell us? We're gonna, yeah, us, you bow down to us, we're older than you, kind of thing. And that's how they responded, including my grandfather. Just they had this. Idea that I was being snotty and too good for my britches kind of thing. And you fast forward, I wind up going to college.
[00:06:20] I barely graduate. I was a pre-med student with a 2.1 gpa, which I took that degree and I got out of there. I'm like, before they realized they made a clerical error, mathematical miscalculation. I am gone. And so I joined the Army because I wanted to get some medical experience. That's where I met my wife.
[00:06:41] That's where we started our family. She had a similar vision as me. She came up through, I think three or four divorces while she was growing up. I went through two and we both just knew that when we marry somebody, not if, when we marry somebody, it's [00:07:00] gonna be somebody who we know and just.
[00:07:01] Feel deep down, they're committed for the long run. They've got all the tools, not just for the now, but for the long run. They know where they're going. They know what they want in life. They're consistent in what they're saying. And here, my wife and I to be are saying the same thing to each other while we're dating and I'm thinking, Yeah I could see this, I could see like our kids growing up and visiting us and our grandkids being a big part of our lives.
[00:07:28] I could see us traveling the world. I could see her laughing at all my dumb dad jokes cuz she's doing it now. And and so we had this vision even in my early twenties, but I think really. Nailed it down that my passion in life is to help other people live their best life. Was after my tour in the Army, after my wife's tour in the army.
[00:07:51] I had a combat tour under my belts two years after that. I'm living as a civilian, like most people do. It's [00:08:00] Christmas the day after Christmas, and I'm laying in bed and I'm realizing, I just maxed out the credit card that we spent all year paying off. We made cutbacks, we made extra payments, we made sure that credit card was paid off, but because of this holiday Christmas, we maxed it right back out.
[00:08:19] And here I am the next day thinking about not the toys and the gifts that we've been given, but having to pay off that debt for the next year. And. I'm like, okay, what can I use to pay that off faster? And there wasn't like, in all my best calculations, the way we're maxed down on credit on everything.
[00:08:40] I was looking at paying things off in 11 months instead of 12 and having no savings. And I thought, that sucks. That's a cycle of repetition. I don't want, it's unproductive. I feel stuck. And then I realized, oh no, I'm in the rat race. So of all the things I've survived in my life, my [00:09:00] parents' divorce being bullied by my extended family combat.
[00:09:05] Here I am 29 years old, about to be 30, and I've just committed myself and my family to the rat race and my mind just went forward into the future If nothing changed, this was the cycle of my life, every day I'd have to go to work because I had to pay these bills, pay these debts or somebody was gonna come and take it all away from us.
[00:09:24] And I couldn't let that happen. And so I was holding on to material stuff and Oh, I
[00:09:30] Scott Maderer: owe, I owe. So it's off to work. I go
[00:09:32] Jerry Dugan: Exactly. And you know what? If I don't like my job anymore, what if I want a promotion? How do I grow? And like all these things started going through my head and it didn't matter.
[00:09:42] What growth I had. I was still gonna be in the same cycle. We're gonna extend our credit with the pay raises, all these things. And I just thought, there's gotta be more to life than this. This is not why I did all the things I did just to get into this cycle and die. And that started [00:10:00] my own transformation.
[00:10:00] I eventually left my job, got into real estate. Turns out my timing could have been better. I went into real estate in 2006, had a great first year. I
[00:10:12] Scott Maderer: was gonna say first couple of years were okay. Turns the second year started towards the end of the second year, started getting pretty bad.
[00:10:18] I'm sure
[00:10:19] Jerry Dugan: It's starting to get frustrating. You're right there. A week out from closing. And there's a change in the mortgage industry. Yeah. And the deal closes, like not closes, falls apart. You're on the selling side and the buyer that is pre-qualified has shown up with cash, their financing falls through, or the home inspector decides to freak out the buyer with all the things that are wrong, and then they panic and they ask for all these just all it took was one person to panic or screw up and our income was hit.
[00:10:49] In a big way because, Commission checks are big and if that's all you live off of, all it takes is for you to lose one commission check. And that's it. You're figuring out how do I put gas in the [00:11:00] car and food on the table for the next month or two? And that was a rollercoaster ride.
[00:11:06] But during that time, Started to grow myself, started to know who I was, reconnect with my values reconnect with the vision my wife and I had for each other, and really tapped into what I'm good at, which is teaching others and took on a job with. A battered women's shelter. So part of my messaging there was how can men be better men to everybody around them?
[00:11:30] Because when you look at violent crime, the majority of it is committed by men. I think it was like 92% of domestic violence or is committed by men. 95% of convicted rapists are men. Just violence in general. I think 85% is committed by men. And I was like we gotta be better.
[00:11:49] And we gotta be comfortable with who we are, weaknesses, strengths, everything and be tied in with our values in a healthy way. [00:12:00] And so that added to it, I started a podcast about nine, almost 10 years ago called Family Time q and a, because I wanted a model. Healthy relationships for families.
[00:12:10] So what if you had a Christian family show where you could tell the kids were not scripted? Cuz that was my big beef about 10 years ago. Christian family shows, you could tell they were scripting their kids. They were leading them with the questions they were asking, even leading them in the answers.
[00:12:29] I'm like that seven year old does not believe the stuff that's coming outta that seven year old's mouth. They're using some big words that seven year olds don't use. This is mom and dad kind of feeding the answers to
[00:12:41] Scott Maderer: their kids, but the kids at children's time at church all know that the right answer is always Jesus.
[00:12:46] Jerry Dugan: It's it's like no matter what the question was, it's like, Jesus, we're in church.
[00:12:51] I get donuts now. That was me and all the times I had been in church. We
[00:12:56] Scott Maderer: We actually have one little girl in children's time that my, my [00:13:00] goddaughters came to children's time and one of my goddaughters is quite talkative.
[00:13:03] And at the end of children's time, she looked at her mother and she says that other little girl talks so much. I didn't get a chance to say what I wanted to say. And we all looked at her and went, Now you know how the rest of the world feels, honey
[00:13:16] Jerry Dugan: I remember the day my daughter met her match.
[00:13:18] She was like nine years old and we were at Disney World and we met a kid on the bus going back to our hotel just like our daughter, in every way. We got off the bus and Emma said to us, I didn't like her. She talked too much. Really
[00:13:36] Scott Maderer: Sorry. I derailed your story.
[00:13:38] Jerry Dugan: You were working. Yeah it was an invitation to my son. I wanted it to be a father-son podcast where my son could ask me any question he wanted. And I would have to answer it truthfully, honestly, and so on. And so you would learn about his perspective of me from his questions you'd learn from me, from my responses.
[00:13:57] And he learned more if I'm telling you the truth or not, based on how my [00:14:00] son reacts. He turned me down. He said, he didn't say no but he looked at my wife when I pitched it to him. He was like 11 at the time. And he asked my wife if he had to do that, and she's he asked you. I was like I don't want him to do it if he feels forced.
[00:14:15] That's the whole point of the show is that it isn't forced. It's natural. And that's where my daughter comes at nine years old. I don't know where she came out of, but she was like there in an instant I'll do it. Come on, let's record right now. And so there we were, we're recording
[00:14:29] Scott Maderer: our first time.
[00:14:30] See earlier conversation about her talking.
[00:14:32] Jerry Dugan: Yes. Yeah. She wanted a YouTube channel. We kept saying no. And she's like, why? Look you're like nine or 10 you're a kid. And we don't want you out there physically seen. And so I guess she figured with parental involvement it'd be allowed.
[00:14:48] And this is how she gets her show. She added an extra element where not only would she ask me a question, but I would ask her a question that she's not ready for. So that was the whole idea. I'm [00:15:00] not ready for the question I'm being asked. I give my honest answer right there, sh we flip it, I ask her a question, she's not ready for it.
[00:15:07] She gives me her answer and that's it. No editing. We posted that as our episode. We wanted to demonstrate that. Man. And then from there, my wife got inspired and so she wanted to be in the rotation. And then my son, he was like, okay, if everybody else is doing it, I'll do it. For about two years we, we cycled through.
[00:15:26] Rotating wife, daughter, son, daughter, wife, son. And just did that for two years. It grew me tremendously because I'm hearing from my family things I could do better, things where I've fallen short. It was like their chance to almost dig at me, but in a loving way. And we'd have to put it out there.
[00:15:47] And that was because that was the agreement. And my daughter nailed me on the very first episode, just cuz I would play video games with my son. But I would rage quit a lot as a combat veteran. Didn't realize that shooter [00:16:00] games were not a good thing for me. And she called me out on it. She was like, you know how you get mad when you play video games with Jacob?
[00:16:07] And I was like if we gotta go. And she started laughing and I'm like it's getting hot. I you're breaking up. Can't hear you. She's dad, I'm in the same room with you. We're talking in the same microphone. I'm like, okay. So I had to answer I had to face that she's stop doing that.
[00:16:22] And it scares everybody, even though we know you're not mad at us, just. That intensity is scary. And I was like, oh man. Okay. So that was the next two years that really grew me. Along comes my friend Brandon, cuz this is me finally landing the plan the plane. Scott what got me.
[00:16:42] Passionate about helping people get outta their rut. Two years later, a buddy of mine from men's ministry, the guy who got me into men's ministry asks me if I could help him start a show that helps Christian men in the thirties and forties who are married, they've got kids, they have all the boxes checked for success.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] But they feel stuck in a rut in life. And as we talked it through, it was the five F's. They feel stuck either in their faith journey, their family life, their fitness levels, whether it's mental, emotional, or physical their finances they're chasing the paycheck or their like I was in 2005, 2006, Strapped for cash, riddled with debt, wondering how do I get outta this rat race?
[00:17:26] And then a positive outlook on the future help him with that. And so that's how beyond the right got started in August, 2015. There were three of us who started the show. Our friends Sean, he, he quit after about 16 episodes. He had other things to do. Brandon retired from the show at about five years in because something he didn't have five years later.
[00:17:50] It was grandkids. So when it came time to think about it do I wanna spend my Saturdays with Jerry recording episodes of Be on the Rut and then write a book and go on a [00:18:00] speaking circuit and all these things? Or do I wanna play with that little baby that calls me Oppa? And he's I'd rather play with the little baby right now.
[00:18:09] And so we had to talk about it and I was like the. And he felt bad, like he wanted to be out of the show. He thought that meant that the show had to end. But I told him the essence of beyond the rut is that you put the most important things first. Your family should come before any work commitments.
[00:18:27] Do you need a work to provide for the family? Yes. Can you balance that work so that you're not missing out on your family life also? Yes. And yeah, there might be seasons where you gotta work late one night. Or every night for a week, but that should not be the norm, and so many of us think that we're so obligated to provide for our families that it means they have to leave early, come home late and show up to things not fully plugged in and recharged ready to go and beyond.
[00:18:58] The rut is all about, [00:19:00] we want you to have your cake and eat it too. We want you to be successful in your career. We want you to be successful in your business. And we want you to do that in such a way that you're thriving in your faith and your family, and as a result of that, your health is also taken care of, and your finances are in a healthy perspective.
[00:19:18] That you'll have the courage to leave a job that's too toxic and taken away from you. That you'll have the courage to change things if you have the power to do that where you work and not miss a child's assembly. If your kid's graduating in kindergarten, you wanna be there.
[00:19:34] Yeah, just the boldy walk into your boss's office and say, I'd like to take tomorrow off, or I'd like to take next Wednesday off and not feel bad about that. And know that the person you should be impressing more than anybody is your child or your wife. Not Mr. Vice president of whatever, or Mr.
[00:19:53] My manager, like you work with them. They're your supervisor. But in the reality, in [00:20:00] the end of the in the end of our lives, I know for me personally, I'm not gonna be saying to myself, man, I really wish I made my manager happier. In my daily job I really wish I checked one more email or did one more project at work.
[00:20:15] No, I'm gonna be thinking, I wish I could breathe one more breath and watch my grandchildren play right here in my hospital room, or my great-grandchildren. I'd love to be around for that. I'd love to hear my daughter pick on me for being extra and all over the place. Those are the things I want, and in talking with other men, It turns out that's a lot of what they want as well. They want to be a good father, a good husband, a provider, but they also don't wanna miss out on everything. And a lot of times I think society tells us we gotta be hard workers and manly men. Go to work all day, every day and miss out on these things.
[00:20:52] And these are the sacrifices we make for our family. And I don't think those sacrifices are worth it. That's my [00:21:00] personal opinion.
[00:21:00] Scott Maderer: Yeah. First off, by the way, thank you and your wife for your service. I always like to remind people whenever a veteran shares that, that that is not a easy job.
[00:21:14] That is not something that all of us have done. But thank you for your service. Thank you. How did your faith journey intersect with this journey from youth to where you are today?
[00:21:29] Jerry Dugan: My, my faith journey came later in life overall. Like when I actually said, Jesus, you are my savior, please come in here, fix things.
[00:21:37] I was about 28 years old by the time I accepted Christ. So everything, I described it to this point, including combat. Not an avid believer. I've had like doses here and there, like when I was a kid growing up, if we visited my grandparents, we went to church with them. I, my motivation to go to church was two things.
[00:21:59] They [00:22:00] served donuts after the service and they got a playground in the back I get to play on. And they got this big motorboat without the engine in it that I get to play on and pretend I'm like James Bond or something. So that was my motivation when I was a kid. They surf donuts. I get to play in the playground and sometimes I get to color.
[00:22:19] Coloring sheets that talk about Jesus when I was in high school, middle school, high school this is weird, but I wound up doing a bible study with Jehovah's Witnesses and it was a weird answer for prayer. I'd had, I had sex at a young age, like at 14 years old and I freaked out thinking I'd just thrown my life away.
[00:22:40] So I prayed, God, help me learn more about you. And Jehovah's Witnesses showed up the dormant the next day and I was like, oh wow. Okay. But they never let me they never led me to Christ. They never let me go to the kingdom hall. They I, apparently I didn't, they could tell I was just regurgitating what was in the book, which kinda weird.
[00:22:58] That's how their studies were.[00:23:00] But then after that I claimed to be agnostic or atheist through high school, through college. Even when Olivia and I met she was somebody who wanted to get tapped back into her faith and go to church. So our first year of marriage, we're shopping churches, but I'm coming up with excuses to get out of 'em.
[00:23:20] I'm like, yeah, that was cool. But they talked about money like the whole time, or, oh, that was cool, but that was boring. It was just like, stand up, sit down. They didn't really explain things. Like I always had some way to say, eh it was nice, but and so that would deter her from offering it again.
[00:23:40] Then I go to a place called Kuwait in January, 2003. We're training I got to make one final call home before we went into Iraq. And I remember on March 19th we're pretty much on the border. We've gotten our briefing of [00:24:00] we're going to, as soon as it gets dark, we're gonna blow up these guard towers along the border on the Iraqi side, like you wouldn't believe.
[00:24:08] We're gonna hit each one with 18 rounds of artillery shells and one round of artillery that we used will blow up and kill everything on a football field. So that's the devastation we're about to unleash. We're gonna unleash. Our motto was unleash hell. And we were truly going to do that with the guard towers just to make a statement.
[00:24:29] And then we were gonna drive across a minefield where a three-lane, like a three-car width lane, was plowed through and in, in the dark. No headlights, just night vision goggles. We're gonna drive through this thing. So we're getting ready for all this stuff. We're changing into our chemical suits, and I'm looking around and I realize people are scared and I write those, like in the movies, people write their last letter home and they give it to their buddy.
[00:24:55] If something happens to me, send this home to my family. And then in the movies they're like, oh, baloney [00:25:00] you'll tell your wife yourself you love her. Those kinds of things. I was convinced I wasn't going home. I was the short timer. I was the medic. I was on stop loss. So who's gonna die in this movie?
[00:25:11] Me. So the last thing I wore, you were wearing a red shirt? Yeah. That was the only thing missing was wearing a red shirt and calling myself security on Star Trek. And. I saw people exchanging letters and I thought the worst thing I could do for these guys is for me, the short timer to write a letter and hand it off.
[00:25:31] So I didn't want people to think I was also expecting to die, even though I was expecting to die. So I wrote my letter home. In a way that it didn't freak out my wife either. It was just, I wanted to know, I her to know I love her. I wanted my son to be able to come back to this and know that I loved him and my daughter who wasn't born yet to also be able to read this when she's older.
[00:25:52] And so I wrote that letter in such a way that would be encouraging. And just remind them, I, I was thinking of you and I mailed it. Like I didn't hand it to a buddy. [00:26:00] I mailed it. And then after that I just thought, I think I've covered all my bases. I'm in my chemical suit, I've got my gear, my weapons clean and ready.
[00:26:08] My aid bag. I was a medic. Is stocked, ready to go. My extra food is here, extra water is here, the map is there. Platoons starts just sitting there. Platoon lit's gonna be sitting there. I can reach up and grab the radio if I need to. I think I've got everything covered. I'm ready for this mission, but that nagging feeling I was gonna die was still there.
[00:26:28] And I thought I guess just to cover my bases here, let me just, I don't know. Pray to God. So this is how my prayer went. I was like, God, if you're real, you're gonna replace me with somebody who will love my wife better than I did, and raise my children as if they were his own, and help them be the good people they can be.
[00:26:51] And that's all I got. That was my prayer. I was like, no. Amen. I think I almost said the end, at the end of it. It was a movie script. [00:27:00] But that was it.
[00:27:01] Scott Maderer: Amen. See?
[00:27:04] Jerry Dugan: Cut. And then we roll in, like we do the mission. We roll into Iraq 21 days later. We're in Iraq, in Baghdad. And just doing our mission.
[00:27:16] And there was a moment where, A soldier saw me being overly aggressive, I guess is the best way to put it with a euphemism. And he just challenged me, what are you doing? And I remember him being outta uniform in the sense that he had a gold chain hanging out, which had a gold cross on it.
[00:27:36] And that made me mad as a sergeant, just you're outta uniform. But I didn't say that to 'em, I just, I saw it, it made me mad. And I just said to him, you could either help me pull security on these folks, or you can help them. Build the wall that they just tore down. It was like a hole, like a two foot hole they put in our wall.
[00:27:54] And and it was to loot what was inside our compound. Not our gear, but there were like [00:28:00] aluminum rods in the compound that we later found out would. Sell really well on the black market and provide for a family for like years. And we're like, oh, we don't want those. Like, why don't you come in here with a big truck, take all of 'em and never break into our compound again.
[00:28:16] And they're like, yeah, we could do that. And so in one fell swop, we eventually did that. We just got rid of all the rods, had them get the word out. There are no more rods in this compound. Stopped breaking in and stopped. It was, that was, it was done almost instantly. So that was like another dose of faith in a sense because it turns out that guy was fulfilling something on his heart, which is go ask that guy what he's doing.
[00:28:43] And when it didn't turn out with a, oh, you're right, I'm sorry. He just resigned and he walked away like, mission accomplished. I did what you put on my heart, God. And off I go. Now, it took me years later to realize that's what happened and that's what was going on. [00:29:00] But it was enough to change how I interacted with the locals.
[00:29:04] The rest of the time I was in Baghdad, which was another like month or so. We get back to the states and we're drive. So I'm reunited with my family, I think in late July and we're driving to the house. So I think it's my wife in the driver's seat cuz she knows where the house is. I have no idea.
[00:29:21] I'm in the passenger seat and I think we've got our daughter in the car with us. And our son is with my mom and stepdad and my brother who also came for the homecoming. And as we're driving home, my wife says, Hey, I've gotta tell you something and do you promise not to be mad? And it was that phrase, do you promise not to be mad?
[00:29:42] That had me go back to my mind, went back to Baghdad. We're getting our briefing from the chaplain who says, Hey, how many of you men here are married? And like a bunch of hands go up. Great. Keep your hand up if you still expect all of your tax free bonus money to still be in the bank when you get [00:30:00] home.
[00:30:00] And almost everybody kept their hands up, except for the guys who had deployed before. They all put their hands down. They do. They do. There is no bonus money in the bank account waiting for you. It was all spent. And he said, great for the guys who have their hands up. This is just so you know, this is what happens on deployments your wife in managing the household and doing the best she could with the money she had.
[00:30:24] You got one of two things. You probably got new furniture because she wants you to come home and be able to see physically that your home is better because of this. That, so it's a outward show a tangible show of affection and welcome. So if that's the case, if you've got new furniture, say thank you and enjoy the furniture.
[00:30:47] And say nothing about the money that was spent. We're like, okay. Got it. Huh? And he said, now the second thing you might have gotten and it has nothing to do with you is your wife may have gotten a boyfriend, [00:31:00] a sidepiece, a Sancho, that kind of thing. And he's saying it matter of factly. And we're like, oh, that's cold.
[00:31:05] Why would that happen? He goes, I know you're in disbelief, but it's gonna happen to some of you. And if that's the case, leave the house, go to a buddy's home. Call me, we'll talk about it. We'll get you through. Under no circumstances are you to lash out at your wife these things happen. But go to a friend's house.
[00:31:29] Call me. This is my number. Write it down, keep it on you. And he made sure we had that number. So here we are in the car driving home and my wife tells me I got something. And all of the guys
[00:31:38] Scott Maderer: are going, new furniture please. New furniture, please. New
[00:31:40] Jerry Dugan: furniture. That is exactly what I was doing in the passenger seat.
[00:31:43] And I think I said it out loud cuz my wife's huh? I'm like, oh Did we get new furniture? And she was like, yeah, we did. I was like, oh good, but that's not what I needed to tell you. And immediately in my head I'm thinking, what She got a boyfriend too. [00:32:00]
[00:32:02] Scott Maderer: He didn't do this as like all of the above.
[00:32:04] He did it as multiple choice.
[00:32:05] Jerry Dugan: There's no third option here. What happened? And I was like, okay what is it? And she said I know you're not very religious, but while you were deployed, especially when the war kicked off, I want you to know I've been praying for you every single day. And I made a promise to God that if he brought you back in one piece, I would make sure you went to church and the rest would be up to him.
[00:32:33] And so I want our family to go to church. Whether or not you believe that's up to you, but can we go to church on Sundays? And I was like, oh, thank God. It's not a, it's not a boyfriend. That's where I
[00:32:47] Scott Maderer: was, new furniture at church is a lot easier coverage. Okay, I can handle that. Yeah, I can swallow
[00:32:52] Jerry Dugan: that bill.
[00:32:52] Let's do that. And so I was like, oh, okay. And I, my reply to her was I [00:33:00] can't make you a liar to God. If you made a deal, you made a deal. And the big thing to me is that we honor our promises. That's one of my core values. So there we were shopping for churches and I did a little less of that poo-pooing of church cuz before, before I deployed, I came up with the reasons why not to go to this church or that church.
[00:33:23] This time around she knew that somebody in my unit was an avid Christian. One of my medics, strong, avid Christian. When every. He would talk about God with us in a non-threatening way. And I was like let me talk to Morales and see where he goes because he's mentioned to us while we were on deployment that his church is very inclusive very modern compared to what we're used to seeing that it doesn't feel like church, but it is church.
[00:33:48] And I was like, I wanna try that. And my wife said, yeah, cool. I asked Morales on the next workday, I'm like, Hey, Morales, what church do you go to? And the guy like, hugged me right away. I'm like whoa. What are you doing buddy? [00:34:00] And he's did you. Did you get saved? I'm like, I have no idea what you're saying, but my wife wants to go to church.
[00:34:08] Scott Maderer: Christians taught Christian E so yeah,
[00:34:12] Jerry Dugan: so I had no clue what he was talking about. Let's save,
[00:34:14] Scott Maderer: have you been bathed in the blood? Excuse me. What are you talking about?
[00:34:18] Jerry Dugan: Like we're all medics, we're all bathed in blood. He goes no. Not that kind of blood. I'm like and he. And I told him the deal my wife made and he goes, oh wow, okay, so your wife made a deal and you came back unscathed.
[00:34:31] And I was like, yeah. He goes, but we all came back unscathed. And she goes and so Morales, he was like, this is the church we go to. Here are the service times. They have a website. Do you have internet? I'm like, I think we do. We have AOL and a new computer. I haven't worked it yet. It's part of the new furniture.
[00:34:47] Yeah, part of the new furniture. I got a new computer and I got video games and I got, I was like, yes. So yeah, there we are. Going to church, I think for three or four months before I get out of the army. We go back to her [00:35:00] hometown, still haven't received Christ. I was still relying on my daughter to have separation anxiety.
[00:35:06] So when they put our number up on the board, I would be the noble dad who would leave and go pick up our daughter. That worked until the church we went to in Corpus Christi. One of the volunteers in my daughter's room where the babies were, she caught on. This daughter cries. This guy shows up every single time, about 15, 20 minutes in the service except this one time when the wife shows up.
[00:35:31] So that was like the one time Liv went to go handle Emma instead of me, was also the last time we ever got called out of church service. And what I found out later on was that one of the volunteers in the baby room, After having a conversation with my wife, turned to her husband, who just happened to be walking by, to like flirt with his wife, basically.
[00:35:52] And she said, Hey honey, that's cute and all, but I need you to go over to that desk, fill out a background check form and you're gonna volunteer [00:36:00] here with me. But you need to fill out that form. Of course, we had to do the back background check. So he did. And so he's like, all right passed Now what?
[00:36:08] And she said, Sunday, we're coming to church together. Anyway your job is to rock this baby girl for an hour every Sunday. They show up to this service every Sunday. Her name is Emma. She's adorable, but she's like the bus on that movie speed. If you slow down on the rocking, she's gonna cry. If you stop rocking, she's gonna cry.
[00:36:28] If you rock too fast, she's gonna cry. So you gotta keep a certain tempo of rocking her in that chair, facing out, or she cries. If she cries. We have to call her dad. And we don't want that. We want her dad to stay in there. So yeah, at the age of 29 years old, Emma hasn't cried for us to leave the church service to get her.
[00:36:48] And our pastor says in the closing prayer where he is doing that call to the altar receive Christ Prayer. For the first time he blurts out. And if you're dipping your toe in the [00:37:00] water, I have it on my heart to say. Stop dipping your toe in the water and just take the plunge. You already know what you're getting into.
[00:37:08] And I was like, that is crazy. Cause I was just thinking, I'd love to say Jesus is my savior, but I don't know what I'm diving into. I've used the pool terms and here he is talking about dipping toes in water and you know what you're getting into, take the dive. And I'm like, how is he in my head?
[00:37:25] So that's when I received Jesus. So yeah, 20 28, 29 years old. 28. Is when I receive Jesus. And man it's been a cool, wild ride ever since. And just seeing where he's been in my life, even before I invited him into my life has just been the coolest journey for me. And it's also a big part of why I'm so passionate about helping people get out unstuck from a rut is li we got this one life on this planet, and.
[00:37:59] [00:38:00] I don't think it's meant to like just pass legislation. I think it's made to make an impact in the lives of others by being your best person, to be your best self, to be a loving person, a giving person, and to demonstrate the kingdom of heaven here. And we, we squander that in a lot of ways.
[00:38:19] Working in a job we hate instead of how can I enjoy this and be a presence for God here? How can I be a good example for the teams who work for me my family, how can I best serve my wife? How can I best serve my kids? And when you have that healthiness in every aspect of your life, things just synergize and grow and just find happiness. You create happiness. And I think you, it's not even creating it or finding it, sometimes it's actually just being a. Recognizing it finally, yes. Because I think a lot of times we chase [00:39:00] happiness because we think of happiness as that, that next thing you talked earlier about the toys and the material stuff and the gotta max out the credit card cuz we gotta get the stuff, cuz the stuff will make us happy.
[00:39:13] Scott Maderer: And it does for about 12 minutes in about minute 13 it's gotta get more stuff because I'm ha I need happy. We it's like an addict after they're hit. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why do you think so many people chase that external success?
[00:39:33] Fill in the blank, whatever that looks like. Better job, more money. Bigger car, nicer car, bigger house, new furniture and that new computer, we chase that well, for that matter. The boyfriend too we chase the happiness outside of ourselves and it doesn't seem to work. It's interesting because the things we're trying to satiate are internal things somebody who has an affair [00:40:00] is just trying to feel connected and loved. Somebody who is going from job to job is trying to find validation and they think they're finding it through job titles and paychecks. And. I think part of it is when we're growing up, a lot of us are validated externally.
[00:40:20] Jerry Dugan: We're shown that like in this family like I, I grew up in a home where my dad is white, my mom is from Thailand. So my mom's perspective is that everybody who's rich is a doctor. And to be a doctor, you gotta have the highest, you gotta be the highest. Scoring person in your class no matter what you're gonna be a doctor.
[00:40:42] Scott Maderer: It's just you know my old joke about doctors, you know what you call the doctor that graduated last in medical school, doctors still call him. Doctor knows exactly. Yeah. But
[00:40:56] Jerry Dugan: Should we see a gpa,
[00:40:59] Scott Maderer: like a [00:41:00] transcript? It's someone somewhere has an appointment to see the world's worst doctor tomorrow.
[00:41:07] Jerry Dugan: It's a fact. Oh man, how I'm not scared at all. And so I think a lot of things especially if you look at the media and you listen to music you look at magazines, a lot of the imagery is around. You gotta wear certain brands of clothing to be cool. You gotta say certain phrases to be hip and in the know.
[00:41:31] You gotta go to certain events to be considered awesome whatever it is. We're told, and we're shown that these external things are what make us good people. These external things are what make us successful, and we wind up just pursuing that even career counseling in schools run the risk of really taking you out of the thing you're gifted for.
[00:41:58] I remember when I was in high school, [00:42:00] our career counselors were actually trying to talk people out of going to college and instead trying to talk you into going into the regional occupational program, which would teach you how to work in the hotel industry or teach you how to work in the indu the restaurant business.
[00:42:15] Because when you looked at the local economy, It was driven by tourism. And if we can convince these high schoolers to take community college and certify, get certified in like being a cashier or being a chef or taking a job while they're still in high school to fold sheets in a hotel, they're gonna have a job when they graduate high school, and they're also gonna serve the local economy.
[00:42:42] But they never really stopped ask what are you gifted at? What are you passionate about? What do you want to do when you think about your future self? And just explore that and at the same time, here's some cool skills you could pick up along the way. And it was just [00:43:00] interesting, like they wanted to make sure you can get into a job.
[00:43:03] That was the thing. Funnel these high school grads into a job, and that's our measure of success. And if you went for it, great, you helped somebody else achieve their goal, maybe to the detriment of your own. And that in a lot of ways. You know that the guy who grow we're talking about doctors earlier.
[00:43:21] How many people get into that profession because their parents were doctors. My daughter's ex-boyfriend we still love the guy. His parent his parents, he's got two of them, but his dad is a physician and his dad has insisted if you want me to pay for college, You gotta give up art and you gotta focus on the medical sciences.
[00:43:43] And so he is. But if you ask that kid, what do you want to do in life? He wants to be an artist. He wants to be a graphic designer. He wants to build websites. He wants to build branding and logos for companies. That's his passion. And [00:44:00] it's sad to see that his own parents are squashing that saying, no, you will be a doctor.
[00:44:04] I'm a doctor. Grandpa's a doctor, great grandpa. He put band-aids on people it's like he doesn't wanna be a doctor. And I've seen, like when I was going through school, the people who were pre-med, only because their dads were doctors and they could not care less about being a doctor.
[00:44:24] They were just there because their parents are paying for college and if they're gonna pay for college, it has to be this field. And you see a lot of those folks go through that realizing, I didn't wanna be a doctor, I didn't wanna be a nurse, I didn't wanna be a lawyer. That's what my parents told me I had to be.
[00:44:38] And so I did it and it, I've hated it and I'm resentful for it. And I'd love for people to get past that learning curve, and just find out who they are, what they want to do, what they, how they want to impact the world. And go learn how to do it and go do it. And then also learn how to make money doing it, because if you have a family, [00:45:00] they're gonna wanna be supported in some way, shape
[00:45:02] Scott Maderer: or form.
[00:45:03] Food is a good thing. Yes. It's good to, it's good to be able to put a roof over people's head and get some food and that kind of thing. Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Again, I think sometimes we confuse what's really providing versus what's. Stuff, yes. That that we use for validation as opposed to actually, and I'm not saying yes, you should only live in a cave and come out on triple coupon Thursdays.
[00:45:32] That's not the point. But cuz I work with a lot of folks in the financial realm and I always tell people when you're looking at your spending plan, when you're looking at your budget, instead of looking at it as, what should I say? No, to look at it from the point of view of what should I say yes to?
[00:45:48] Yeah. And then when you get to the other stuff, it's a lot easier to go. Oh, I can let that go. Yeah. Because you've already said yes to the stuff that's actually most important to you, whatever that is if that makes sense. [00:46:00] Yeah. I think tithing was probably the biggest eye-opener for me. We were not tithers, like when I told that story about me laying in bed after Christmas, we were not tithers at that point. But we were up to our eyeballs and debt. We could barely make ends meet. And so you
[00:46:17] couldn't afford to tide. The tide couldn't. And I put that in air quotes cause Yeah.
[00:46:22] Jerry Dugan: And when we made that commitment, we're going to do this, all of a sudden we had to look at everything we were spending and it's do we really need that subscription?
[00:46:31] I don't know. When's the last time we went to the gym? And we'd laugh okay, we're canceling that. What about this? Like, when's the last time we watched these channels about a year ago? Do we have to have that? Not really. Why do we keep it? Because this one channel is included in the package.
[00:46:48] I'm like, okay, is that adding value to our lives? Like we started asking these questions, is it adding value to our lives? And we're like we can actually get, we're only getting that one channel because of this one show, [00:47:00] and we can actually rent the DVDs and it's cheaper if we do that. And so we started to realize there are other, like we, we can still enjoy life.
[00:47:09] And at the same time, we could be better stewards of our finances and just being able to like commit to saving first, giving first. Actually we give first, then save, right? And then spend the rest as Dave Ramsey likes to say. And it really makes you look at everything from a what is adding value to our lives.
[00:47:27] Now I've whittled things down instead of ha binding it all and realizing Three fourths of it, I didn't even want, I can now think ahead of time and say, okay, this I know we would get use out of this. I'm just curious about this one thing. I don't know if it's worth buying it to, to play with it for a day and then be done with it.
[00:47:47] And so we just, we've become better consumers than a away. By, by giving. And so that was a big game changer for us was to, to tithe. I don't know.
[00:47:59] Scott Maderer: [00:48:00] Yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing about tithing is cuz I've had, that's why I put the, you can't afford it in air quotes cuz. Truth is if if you're looking at tithing the way it's defined, which is giving 10% that's actually what the word tithe means. Yeah. Then cuz I always love people that say I'm tithing 5%. It's okay, you can say I'm giving 5%, but don't use the word tithe cuz you're misusing the word.
[00:48:25] But and by the way, there's nothing wrong if that's what you're choosing to give. That's not a right or wrong thing. It's just a, don't use that word, but the, when, if if you can't live on 90%, you can't really live on a hundred percent either. Yeah. Because ironically the same person that's saying they can't afford it, usually it's going into debt.
[00:48:46] And it's that means you're already spending more than a hundred percent. That, that's how that math works, so Yes,
[00:48:53] Jerry Dugan: yes. And it's crazy. Like we, we found ourselves living better when we gave 10% save [00:49:00] 10% and. Roman 80. It was just mind blowing to us. Because it
[00:49:06] Scott Maderer: it forces you to say no to some things.
[00:49:08] Yeah. And say yes to the important
[00:49:11] Jerry Dugan: stuff. Exactly. Hey, you start creating these boundaries and you're like, okay, we will always say yes to these things, fhu, shelter, clothing, but then with
[00:49:19] Scott Maderer: like expert transportation, utilities, I'll allow those.
[00:49:23] Jerry Dugan: And then of course we still have, once we wanna go out, we wanna live life, we wanna go on vacations and.
[00:49:29] And so we started managing that 80% to get there and Working with your spouse to get there and even involving the kids. So they learn it as Oh yeah, it's huge. It
[00:49:40] Scott Maderer: it, yeah. Yeah. My son saw us get outta debt and still hasn't, he's 20 now and he doesn't believe in debt. In fact, the reason he's been working and doing all of that is cuz he wants to save up money before he goes to college or gets any training because he wants to do it for cash.
[00:49:56] But I can still remember him at eight, nine [00:50:00] years old, seeing somebody. Put a card in the machine in front of us, in the line at the store and him going credit cards are bad. It's son, sh, that's our choice. You don't have to tell them
[00:50:15] Jerry Dugan: soap. We're going the town square now.
[00:50:23] Scott Maderer: So Jerry, I've got a few questions that I like to ask all of my guests, but before I go there, is there anything else about the work you do there beyond the rut that you'd like to share with the listener and make sure they
[00:50:34] Jerry Dugan: hear. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is one of the things I talk about in my book all the time is know your rut to get out of your rut.
[00:50:42] And three simple steps, r u t. So the R is recognize the rut you're in and I like to guide people through the five Fs of their life. So how are things going in your faith journey? How are things going in your family? How are things going with your your fitness levels, emotionally, mentally, physically[00:51:00] financial statement?
[00:51:02] What's your net worth like right now? Not to say that's you're worth just what's the report card on your finances, and then how's your outlook on your future growth? And that'll let you know what is impacting these five areas and what's my rut? And from there you'll understand, okay, with these five areas, where do I really want to be?
[00:51:21] And then, From there, you can set some goals to help close those gaps. And then the t is take action. What's the action you're going to do on a daily basis to get to where you want to go? And so that's the r u t model I love to talk about. And the five Fs that tie into there, that those are the five pillars in a sense that if you're doing well in all five, you're doing well.
[00:51:44] If your health is taking a hit. It's worth taking a look at that because it's also gonna impact your family life. It's gonna maybe get you to question your faith those kinds of things. So yeah, looking at life from those five pillars and lenses. Lenses so
[00:51:59] Scott Maderer: what was the, [00:52:00] you actually stand for?
[00:52:01] Jerry Dugan: Understand where you want to go.
[00:52:02] Scott Maderer: Understand. Okay. Yeah, you probably said that, but I missed it. Oh,
[00:52:06] Jerry Dugan: I said it so fast.
[00:52:10] Scott Maderer: PLO is, yeah, PLO is you knew the answer already, my brand is inspired in stewardship, just like yours is beyond the rut. And I talked about things through that lens of stewardship and yet, and you used the word earlier, but that's one of those words that a lot of folks use and it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
[00:52:30] So when you hear that word, stewardship, Today, what does it mean to you and what has the impact of that understanding had on you? Yeah
[00:52:37] Jerry Dugan: Stewardship for those who don't know, but I'm sure a lot of the folks who listen in to this show do know, but in case you're new and the word's not nor normal for you it's yeah, cuz it's another Christian word.
[00:52:50] Yeah. So the idea of stewardship comes from recognizing like our finances come from God and so they're ours, but at the same time they're [00:53:00] really, they're in our. Purview responsibility to take care of. They're not really ours. So we're managing it for God. And so what do I do with my money in a way that honors God and makes the world a better place?
[00:53:14] It's similar to the military. I was assigned troops to lead when I was in the Army, and I would at times refer to them as my soldiers, my team. My people. But the reality was they were the, I hate to say it, but our bodies at the time belonged to the US government. So they were the US Army's soldiers.
[00:53:35] They were on mission for the US government and the US of a and I just had the stewardship over them to manage them, lead them, and get them home as safely as possible. And so stewardship for me is the same thing. The life that we have. Is ours. And at the same time, its mission and purpose is not like we're given a chance to manage the life we've got in such a way that we advance the [00:54:00] kingdom of God.
[00:54:01] And so we're on mission and we make the most of it because eventually we gotta give this life back and return home hopefully to heaven. And it's not something you earn your way into. Of course. Yeah. It's right. Yeah. I said, hopefully that's gonna be like, oh yeah, we made a mistake with you.
[00:54:19] Go back.
[00:54:21] Scott Maderer: Yeah I, so I sometimes yeah. You might show up at the door and be like, oh, I'm sorry you got the wrong address. You, your delivery is next door. Sorry. You go to the back gate, Jerry, you go back to that. You go to back day. Could be. Like I, I tell people that all the time.
[00:54:43] I'm like, I know what I believe. I don't know that I'm right. Those are two different things. It's I may show up before God and God goes, oh boy Scott, oh you got so much wrong. Oh boy, I can't believe you thought that
[00:54:57] Jerry Dugan: Whatever. We'll talk, we got some words. [00:55:00]
[00:55:01] Scott Maderer: It's okay cuz I've got a list of questions for God too.
[00:55:03] So one of which is, why did you let the mosquitoes survive? That's what was that purpose?
[00:55:10] Food for the bats. Other than that, I'm not sure. So here's my favorite question that I love to ask everybody. Imagine for a minute. I invented this magic machine and I could pluck you from where you are today and transport you magically into the future 150, maybe 250 years.
[00:55:26] And through the power of this machine, you were able to look back and see your entire life and see all of the connections, all of the ripples, all of the impacts you've left behind. What impact do you hope you've left on the world?
[00:55:37] Jerry Dugan: Oh man. The impact that I hope I've left is really what I'm striving for right now.
[00:55:43] Twofold. One that in my own life my, my wife is still with me to the very end my kids. Look up to me in terms of this is a guy who lives consistently and inspired me through my whole life. So much so that [00:56:00] I use Jerry grandpa, dad, whatever to teach my kids. So it's that family connection through living life together.
[00:56:11] So that's the first thing. The second is that I can inspire other people out there who've come from broken homes. Who had a hard childhood to come to, to look up and look forward and see, yes, I can live my life differently and go for it. So in, in the way that the O'Neill family, that our foster family in Germany for two months gave me that seed of hope I'm hoping that in some way everything I do in my life is a seed of hope for somebody else.
[00:56:45] Scott Maderer: So what's coming next for you? What's on the the roadmap as we finish out the
[00:56:49] Jerry Dugan: year? Awesome. At the time we're recording this, I am about six months into, I quit my job. I've already self-published a book called Beyond the [00:57:00] Rut, create a Life Worth Living in Your Faith, family, and Career.
[00:57:02] And I'm building a business called B T R Impact helping people. Really applies servant leadership to the work they do. And so that's B t R impact. It's helping leaders who are faced with high turnover rates. They're faced with how do I compete to keep my talent in my team? And I need to be able to do this faster, quicker, and I can't wait on hr.
[00:57:33] I can't wait on my executive suite to come up with the decisions. What can I do with my team right now? And so I teach those skills to those leaders, the mindset around servant leadership and help them. Stem the tide of turnover. And that's what's up next. I'm building up the platform. I'm deciding like, am I slowly going to do workshops at companies or am I going to focus on individual leaders?
[00:57:56] I've got a decision point to make in the next couple of [00:58:00] weeks because I need to go out there and start pitching. This is what I do. And I help you.
[00:58:07] Scott Maderer: So you can find out more about Jerry and his podcast and the other work that he does over at his website beyond the rut.com. You'll find all of that over there.
[00:58:18] Of course, I'll have a link to that in the show notes as well. Jerry, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listener?
[00:58:24] Jerry Dugan: My biggest thing is my tagline that life is just too darn short to live stuck in a rut. So if you're feeling stuck in a rut right now yeah, just take a look at how are things in those five Fs.
[00:58:35] Go check out the show after you're done listening to this show, subscribe to both of us and get inspired on stewardship over your life. And get some tips from me and encouragement on how to get unstuck from your rut and share that with other people.
[00:58:53] Scott Maderer: Thanks so much for listening to the Inspired Stewardship Podcast. As a subscriber and listener, we [00:59:00] challenge you to not just sit back and passively listen. But act on what you've heard and find a way to live your calling. If you enjoyed this episode please do us a favor. Go over to inspired stewardship.com/itunes.
[00:59:20] Rate all one word. iTunes rate. It'll take you through how to leave a rating and review, and how to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so that you can get every episode as it comes out in your feed. Until next time, invest your time, your talent, and your treasures. Develop your influence and impact the world.
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.
In today's episode, I ask Jerry about:
Some of the Resources recommended in this episode:
I make a commission for purchases made through the following link.
Beyond the Rut is all about we want you to have your cake and eat it too. We want you to be successful in your career, we want you to be successful in your business and we want you to do that in such a way that you are thriving in your faith and your family. – Jerry Dugan
You can connect with Jerry using the resources below: